Nope, the Alvin hasn't been retired yet. Though apparently there was a BBC article that said otherwise in 2004. Then again, the HOV replacement is suppose to be delivered sometime this year so I could be wrong. Anyway, the last update was June 2nd so it seems the Alivin has been busy so far.

History of Alvin : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution

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I don't pretend to know everything, educate me, and I'll try to educate you. Shouting matches and insults aren't going to convince me.

Of course we shouldn't be unreasonable about it, but in 1961 Kennedy said that within ten years we'd put a man on the moon.

Forty three years later Bush said that within sixteen years we'd put a man on... the moon.

This is not progress.

This really doesn't seem unreasonable considering the history of American corporations. I fully acknowledge that it'll take more than a couple eccentric billionaires to make commercial space flight compare to that of NASA and the ESA but once those few get it there it'll be destined to go beyond the national programs.

So your problem is that they fell back on a design shown to be superior (economically) to what NASA uses?

I could see docking fees comparable to the cost of the activity. Nothing more though.

I'm not saying commercial space flight should just up and set course for Mars. Just that they should look to it as an ultimate goal (until they find the next location) and take steps to reach it. I agree that space tourism, once it's off the ground (I specifically avoided two puns before this one and finally gave in), but the problem is that government organizations aren't doing enough exploration.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

There is a huge difference between 1962 and 2004. The biggest one being the lack of the cold war. Whether the reason made sense in hindsight or not, its pretty clear the reason there was so much funding and so much push behind the Apollo program is because many felt it was of political and [quote=Porras;1229699]strategic importance that we reach the moon before the Soviets. Simply put, no competition and when the stakes aren't as high as they were in 1962 it's hard to convince people that a manned mission to Mars is necessary.

The ESA is the only space agency that comes close to having the capability if they team up with the RKA, and they've still got a bit of catching up to do. Frankly, I think they'd rather share the glory than go it alone. So yeah, I think there is the potential for it to become an international mission with the ESA & RKA sharing the costs and labor.


We'll see, I have no doubt it will happen as you say eventually, but whether it happens anytime in the next 30 to 40 years is another thing.




I don't have a problem with Spaceshipone, I think it was very smart and the obviously choice as far as design goes. I'm just saying its hardly revolutionary and its limits show just how far private spaceflight has to go. Though you've got to start somewhere after all, and the VSS Enterprise is an excellent place to begin such an endeavor.



Well I guess it depends, if they're making regular schedule trips I'm against that. The RKA or company involved should then put forth a certain amount to maintain the ISS. Though truthfully, I think the ISS should be left to the purpose it was built for. Not a tourist destination, let them build their own station otherwise.


Okay, well I can agree with that.


How do you figure? I think they're doing plenty. Pluto, check, Saturn, check, Moon, check, Mercury, check, Vesta, check, Mars, triple checked. Not to mention all the other scientific missions that I've been remiss in including. What by your definition is enough exploration?

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I don't pretend to know everything, educate me, and I'll try to educate you. Shouting matches and insults aren't going to convince me.

The push for more. I'd like to see them try to really progress rather than simply taking the same steps they've been taking for years an increment further every five or so.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

Again, that's rather vague, please explain further. What is real progress exactly? O.o

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I don't pretend to know everything, educate me, and I'll try to educate you. Shouting matches and insults aren't going to convince me.

I can't really tell you. I'm not familiar with the field. I do know that if NASA had applied itself over the past two decades we could now have a station on the moon and a manned Mars landing within the next five years.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

That takes a lot of money; it isn't like they've had an expanding budget lately. What we get is a matter of what we invest in space exploration.

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please click and help the eggs hatch!

"The only abnormality is the incapacity to love"
-Anias Nin

The reason NASA hasn't done those things yet is because they haven't had the funding for such things and have been hampered by a aging shuttle fleet that didn't get a serious successor till after the loss of Columbia. Then there is the ISS, another great white elephant that many people feel doesn't meet justification and like I said in another thread we're paying like 70 something percent of the costs of the damn thing. Especially if they're going to abandon it after only five years as they have planned right now. I think NASA does a excellent job with what they're given, but the reality is that they simply don't have the resources they need to do the sort of thing your talking about.

Heck, even the return to the moon in 2020 isn't set in stone, who knows if that will get enough funding to even make it as far as a moon base. The reality is, we're not fully committed to manned space flight or even robotic space exploration. Many Americans don't see the point of it, and many more don't see it as a long term goal for the US to conquer space. Though at the same time its a significant part of our culture that I'd doubt we'd ever just stop, so I'd say we're only half committed at best. I don't see a problem with it, a few steps at a time is better than nothing and time is on our side for the most part.

I mean what, we've got a few hundred million years before we have to evacuate the earth, right? The only thing really limiting us is us of course until then. What it'd really take to do what your talking about though is a majority in this country backing the space program and willing to pay. Good luck with that.

Also, I have to say I'm opposed to manned space flight in some instances, because the reality is that there will be cuts to other programs as a result of a moon base and Mars mission. Cuts to the robotic space exploration program, and cuts to satellites that tell us even more about our own world. If they could do it all, fine, go ahead and go back to the moon permanently and go to Mars but I doubt there wont be some bean counter somewhere questioning if we really need all these things especially when the Orion spacecraft/rockets become vastly over budget which is probably what's going to eventually happen.

So let the Chinese go to the moon if they want, and let the ESA go to Mars, because being first doesn't exactly bring a lot of benefits to justify the trip. Especially when there is absolutely nothing useful to earthlings in either of these places or at least not enough to make a difference anytime soon.

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I don't pretend to know everything, educate me, and I'll try to educate you. Shouting matches and insults aren't going to convince me.

That's a large part of my point. It's not that NASA's dropping the ball on their own, just that they aren't doing enough. That's why I want to see a push in space tourism to lead private industry to take over exploration. So long as you're looking at the long term, the money will come and there are more than a few mega rich that it won't bankrupt in the mean time.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

I still doubt anyone but government agencies will want to take over the job of space exploration. Even in the long term there isn't enough benefit, not really anyway unless the driving force behind it simply a die hard space nut. I mean after all if rich billionaires were so intent upon exploring the solar system etc why haven't they done it by now on their own? Heck, why haven't they payed extra not only for the flight up to the ISS but to maintain it for the future? Where are the private space probes exactly?

I know if I had a few million dollars at my disposal I'd send the highest resolution camera I could into orbit around the moon. Weight be damned!

The truth of the matter is, those who care about space exploration and know that it is necessary are a minority. Many people simply don't care, and I don't see how privatizing space exploration is going to change that. Private industry would rather benefit from the innovation/discovery rather than do the dirty work that involves spending money rather than making it.

Again, there is no reason for private spaceflight & government spaceflight to be at odds. Both can benefit each other amazingly, instead your proposing we scrap NASA and stick with only private space flight. There is no reason, space tourism will bring greater interest in space similar to the way it has benefited interesting in our natural places on earth like the Grand Canyon. While the experience and expertises from government agencies will eventually ensure that private spaceflight is safer as well as cheaper.

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I don't pretend to know everything, educate me, and I'll try to educate you. Shouting matches and insults aren't going to convince me.

I'm not arguing that we should scrap NASA. My goal of commercial space exploration could make it obsolete, but that would be a bridge for us to burn when we got there.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist