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Thread: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

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    Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    Is this bunk or is there something to it?

    Liberals, Atheists Are More Highly Evolved?

    Maggie Koerth-Baker

    for National Geographic News

    Published March 3, 2010

    Your apelike ancestors probably aren't top of mind when you enter the polling booth. But a new study suggests that human evolution may have a big influence on whether you're liberal or conservative—not to mention how smart you are, whether you believe in God, or whether you've got a cheatin' heart.

    It's all linked to the evolution of intelligence, says author Satoshi Kanazawa, an evolutionary psychologist at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

    (Also see "Future Humans: Four Ways We May, or May Not, Evolve.")

    Kanazawa's theory is that intelligence—particularly our ability for on-the-spot problem solving and reasoning—arose as an adaptation to deal with the unusual and unexpected, such as a sudden forest fire.

    Since disasters like that are rare in daily life, responding to them wouldn't likely be something our ancestors were hard-wired to "know" how to do. Surviving the fire required both the ability to think up a new behavior, and the willingness to try it out.

    Passed down via genetics, those two traits are still the calling cards of an intelligent brain—expressed as a tendency toward adopting nontraditional social values and preferences, Kanazawa says in his new study, published in the March 2010 issue of Social Psychology Quarterly.

    As a result of their iconoclastic ancestry, he suggests, people with higher levels of intelligence are more likely to adopt social values and behaviors that are relatively new to human life—liberalism, atheism, staying up late, and (for men) monogamy, for example.

    This tendency toward iconoclasm stems from smart people's brains being better adapted to dealing with new situations, according to Kanazawa.

    (Related: "Did Discrimination Enhance Intelligence of Jews?")

    Liberals Are Smarter Than Conservatives?

    Kanazawa's evidence is in the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, or Add Health, which has been tracking the same group since 1994.

    The study used a picture-based vocabulary test to estimate the IQ of participating teenagers. Seven years later, the same people were asked about their religious and political beliefs.

    People who later admitted to being "not at all religious," and who classified themselves as "very liberal" politically had higher IQ scores as teenagers than those who were "very religious" and "very conservative."

    The difference isn't huge. Only 11 points, on average, separate the liberal from the conservative, for instance. But Kanazawa believes it's significant.

    "Liberalism"—which Kanazawa defines, in part, as caring about the well-being of vast numbers of people you'll never meet—"is a very new thing for humans," he said.

    "Historically, humans cared about the welfare of immediate family and friends but not complete strangers."

    (See "Was Darwin Wrong?" from National Geographic magazine.)

    Faulty Evidence?

    The new study is intriguing, if speculative, other psychologists say.

    "Kanazawa has done interesting work, but there are other hypotheses out there for the evolution of intelligence that are equally interesting," said Douglas Detterman, a psychologist at Case Western Reserve University and editor of the journal Intelligence.

    For instance, other researchers have advanced the theory that intelligence arose as a way of competing for sex. If that's the case, Kanazawa's conclusions only make sense if, say, being liberal or atheist also makes you more sexually attractive. (Take a Darwin quiz.)

    Also, the IQ test may not be the best evidence for Kanazawa's ideas, said Stephen Ceci, professor of developmental psychology at Cornell University.

    IQ tests can be a good way to measure intelligence, he said, particularly when the results are controlled for differences in education and socioeconomic status, as Kanazawa's were.

    But the Add Health method for measuring IQ—via picture vocabulary questions—doesn't necessarily tell you anything about the right kind of intelligence, Ceci said. "They're a better measure of crystallized intelligence, which you acquire through school and culture. That kind of intelligence is not primarily genetic."

    If a preference for nontraditional values is in fact an evolutionary adaptation, Ceci said, you could only determine that using an IQ test that measures problem solving and reasoning skills that are not explicitly taught—such as a puzzle-based assessment.

    (Related: "Human Genome Shows Proof of Recent Evolution, Survey Finds.")

    Study author Kanazawa appears to agree that his evidence could be better, saying, "Professor Ceci's comment is very well taken."

    In fact, Kanazawa recently finished compiling data from the National Child Development Study (NCDS), which uses 11 different cognitive tests, administered at three different ages.

    The NCDS is a much sturdier way to measure innate intelligence, Kanazawa said, and he'll be using the newly compiled data to try to replicate his findings.

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Source
    The NCDS is a much sturdier way to measure innate intelligence, Kanazawa said, and he'll be using the newly compiled data to try to replicate his findings.
    Good idea, it seems kind of vague. "Conservatism" and "liberalism" is a strange dichotomy kind of peculiar for you Americans. I don't even know what it means. Elsewhere, I suppose liberal means either finanicially liberal (more free-market oriented) or socially liberal (liberty, equal rights), and conservative means regressive, wary of change, often religious. Call it backwards, or just old fucks. Not that hard to guess which is the more intellectually capable in that case.

    It seems, judging from the definition they've employed for "liberalism", the definition for "conservatism" is "fuck you, got mine", which is quite fitting in the American context.


    For instance, other researchers have advanced the theory that intelligence arose as a way of competing for sex. If that's the case, Kanazawa's conclusions only make sense if, say, being liberal or atheist also makes you more sexually attractive. (Take a Darwin quiz.)
    Which does not make sense. On a personal level, however, hell yes do I prefer intelligent girls to superstitious dimwits.

    Edit: Typo.
    Last edited by Aarstad; 03-08-2010 at 12:07 AM.
    The intellectual journey that had began with Copernicus displacing humans from the centre of the Universe and continued with Darwin’s insistence that humans are merely modified monkeys has finally focused in on the very essence of life. And there was nothing special about it. The double helix is an elegant structure, but its message is downright prosaic: life is simply a matter of chemistry.
    - James Watson

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    Studies have shown Atheist/Libertarians to be the smartest of all ...


    "The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort." -- Robert E. Heinlein

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    It seems to me that using teenagers for the study, more or less guaranties the outcome. Teenagers are supposed to be liberals. They see injustice and inequality and want to make it right. The problem is, at that point in their lives, their parents have been in charge of their welfare. It's only natural to expect government to take the place of mom and dad when they're on their own.
    I'm sick and tired of my brothers and sisters dying to preserve America's right to drive like assholes.

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie S. View Post
    It seems to me that using teenagers for the study, more or less guaranties the outcome. Teenagers are supposed to be liberals. They see injustice and inequality and want to make it right. The problem is, at that point in their lives, their parents have been in charge of their welfare. It's only natural to expect government to take the place of mom and dad when they're on their own.
    Eh?
    "Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires intelligence, vigilance, dedication and courage. But if we don't practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us -- and we risk becoming a nation of suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along." -Carl Sagan

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie S. View Post
    It seems to me that using teenagers for the study, more or less guaranties the outcome. Teenagers are supposed to be liberals. They see injustice and inequality and want to make it right. The problem is, at that point in their lives, their parents have been in charge of their welfare. It's only natural to expect government to take the place of mom and dad when they're on their own.
    i think you missed something
    "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." --Thomas Paine

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1 View Post
    Is this bunk or is there something to it?

    Liberals, Atheists Are More Highly Evolved?
    lib·er·al (lbr-l, lbrl)
    adj.
    1.
    a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
    b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
    liberalcon?ser?va?tive - definition of liberalcon?ser?va?tive by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. (kn-sûrv-tv)
    adj.
    Conservative

    1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
    2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
    3. Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.
    conservative - definition of conservative by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    I don't know how valid these definitions are, and I would also question how someone decides that they are politically liberal or conservative. I will say that in my 30 yrs of construction management I've found that there is a large group of people that learn one way to do things and are resistant if not hostile to a different method, and in my very unscientific study, these individuals seem to be at their zenith. I found a smaller group that is generally open to a new idea or method, and it seems these individuals keep making progress. Personally (and I have no data to back this up) I think these qualities are a combination of intelligence and personality, and I don't believe these qualities have much to do with an individual's politics.

    Being a liberal certainly I think that liberals are more intelligent, but also being a liberal I have to reject the bigotry of thinking people who agree with me are more intelligent.

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    This kind of conclusions cannot be scientific. The terms and cirterion applied in the experiments themselves ("Liberal", "Conservative", "Atheist", the survey questions etc) are not scientific to begin with. Not to mention people change their minds as they grow up.

    If what it says is that children or adults who tend to have better vocabulary or higher IQ or generally score better at tests, are so because they think more and take less of what they are told (by the Bible, or authorities in general) for granted- well that's just platitude. It's like saying conservatives are generally wealthier in a capitalist society.

    The whole talk about evolution is nonsense- human beings did not begin to have political organizations until 5000 years ago, and we have existed for much longer. If there are impacts on our genes because of the political behavior of our ancestors, then these ancestors ought to be consistently liberal, or consistently conservative, for such points to be made. And nobody knows if their ancestors are liberal or conservative.
    "Déjeme decirle, a riesgo de parecer ridículo, que el revolucionario verdadero está guiado por grandes sentimientos de amor. Es imposible pensar en un revolucionario auténtico sin esta cualidad."

    Ernesto 'Che' Guevara.

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    Have to agree with WFCY here.
    "The spirit must be the firmer, the heart the bolder,
    courage must be the greater as our might fails"

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    I agree with WFCY, as well. There's also the fact that most people tend to have nuanced political views and cannot be pigeon holed into being 'liberal' or 'conservative'.

    At best, I could see someone making a case for "fringe" versus "non-fringe". As in, those who follow lock step to either side of the spectrum tend to think a lot less than those who think for themselves, whether they be conservative, liberal or any other political belief. Even that would be kind of a stretch, though.
    "Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires intelligence, vigilance, dedication and courage. But if we don't practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us -- and we risk becoming a nation of suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along." -Carl Sagan

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    I've seen this come up a number of times in the past. In my study of the three people I know, who I know to be in the top 1% in terms of IQ, one of them was an atheist and none could be classified as liberal or conservative. Theory debunked.
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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    I'd say the athiests have automatically proven themselves more intelligent on one topic, but that doesn't necessarily translate into being smarter about Everything.
    Today's forecast: Government corruption.
    Tomorrow's forecast: 100% chance of more 'politics as usual'

    Maybe it's finally time to vote Libertarian

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_inKarlate View Post
    I'd say the athiests have automatically proven themselves more intelligent on one topic, but that doesn't necessarily translate into being smarter about Everything.
    I disagree, the way I see it, agnostics are the only ones who hold a logical and rational view on religion - Athiests beliefs are just as faith based as those of the religious.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what's for dinner.
    Liberty is a well armed lamb willing to contest the majority decision!" ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tautog View Post
    I disagree, the way I see it, agnostics are the only ones who hold a logical and rational view on religion - Athiests beliefs are just as faith based as those of the religious.
    I think it depends on your version or definition of agnosticism. If you're 99.9% sure there is no god, and 0.1% thinks there might be, effectively you're athiest in my book.

    On the other hand if you're 99.9% sure there is a god and 0.1% a doubting thomas, then I'd say you're a devout believer.

    Agnostics need to learn to shit or get off the pot.

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    Re: Athiests/Liberals are smarter than Religious/Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1 View Post
    I think it depends on your version or definition of agnosticism. If you're 99.9% sure there is no god, and 0.1% thinks there might be, effectively you're athiest in my book.

    On the other hand if you're 99.9% sure there is a god and 0.1% a doubting thomas, then I'd say you're a devout believer.

    Agnostics need to learn to shit or get off the pot.
    Definitions of these two terms are readily available it would be trite for me to repeat them.

    However, I will give my version of it: Atheist thinks the existence of God is a matter of certainty. Agnostics, a matter of probabily.

    I am an agnostic in the above sense- incidentally, many people who claims to be atheistic are in fact agnostics- Richard Dawkins, for example, in his book The God Delusion, states that even though he cannot prove the non-existence of a god, the probabily of his existence, given by scientific evidence, is so slim that he may as well call himself an atheist, even though there is no way to justify it to the fullest extent.

    Now, it is impossible to measure one's believes in percentile, except in the metaphoric sense. I would go as far as saying that I am an atheist because I find the level of interference of organized religion far outweighs the probability of god existing, based on the evidence I have sought. Nevertheless, I would be an agnostic- being fully aware that a positive proof of non-existence would require far greater powers than I could ever muster, and a lifetime that is eternity. When you are at this stage, I think the distinction matters very little.
    "Déjeme decirle, a riesgo de parecer ridículo, que el revolucionario verdadero está guiado por grandes sentimientos de amor. Es imposible pensar en un revolucionario auténtico sin esta cualidad."

    Ernesto 'Che' Guevara.

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