Actually, the South did not start the war. Lincoln did. Sure, the Southerners fired on Ft. Sumpter, but only after Lincoln broke many agreements the Union had with South Carolina. Basiclly, SC was invaded by the Union and it defended itself.

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"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."
-Thomas Jefferson in his first inauguration address

I think the main reason, despite the details, is simply that the flag it self is a part of our history. Thus it remains, and its meaning is many things. Whether its rebellion, southern pride, racism, or maybe just a declaration that the south will rise again. Though technically the most popular version of the supposed CSA flag was never associated with any country. It's actually a combination of the Battle Flag and the Navy Jack.

Most popular version.


Navy Jack


Battle Flag


Official CSA Flag.


See, not at all simple, much history and many meanings.

My apologies then.
I never intended to claim most whites in the north weren't racists. And I never intended to claim Lincoln went to war to end slavery. But I didn't think I wrote anything that even hinted at any such claims so I wasn't sure where you were coming from. Sometimes I get unnecessarily combative.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

I'm sorry but that's just nonsense. Armed groups in the southern states confiscated federal property and ejected federal troops. Lincoln had no obligation to respect any agreements with south carolina that were not part of a federal government to state government relationship. It is not possible for a federal force to "invade" one of the states in teh federation. Clearly, armed groups in southern states initiated the armed violence that became the civil war.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

No. As a state, South Carolina had to right to leave the union anytime it pleased. When South Carolina left the union, it was no longer a "state in the federation." Therefore, all union troops should have LEFT Ft. Sumpter, and certainly, no troops should have been added to Ft. Sumpter in an attempt to build strength for an attack.

Like it or not, states have to right to leave the union. I challange you to prove otherwise. What part of the Constitution prohibits states from leaving the union?

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"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."
-Thomas Jefferson in his first inauguration address

Nonsense. A federation of states that would allow the members thereof to leave or join at a whim would not last long enough to be worth writing the rules down on paper. There would be no point in such a federation. How ridiculous the notion is was shown by the southern confederacy itself when it refused such a right when some of its own members threatened to secede.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

One reason I do not wave the confederate flag is that, despite being right on their decision to leave the union, they were very hypocritical. For one, they refused to allow other states to leave their union, the suspended Habeus Corpus and they did other mean things. So, the lesson here is that all governments do bad stuff.

However, the states most certainly had a right to seperate from the union. The US was an organization entered to voulantarily by the states. South Carolina, for example, included a clause in their ratifaction of the Constitution that would allow them to leave anytime they wanted to. Many northern states talked about leaving the union over the War of 1812. Yet, in all of the debate on the issue none that I have seen had anything to do with whether or not it was Constitutional. They were only debating whether or not it would be beneficail to leave the union. This clearly implies that no one really questioned the Constitutionality of the action.

And, I again refer you to the 10th Amendment:
According to this, any power that is not prohibited to the states is something that the states can do. No where does the Constituion forbid states from leaving the union, therefore, under the 10th Amendment, they can leave the Union.

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"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."
-Thomas Jefferson in his first inauguration address

The history of the Civil War, and the constitutionality has little or nothing to do with 21st century display of the stars and bars.
Flags are symbols, and while 145 years ago that flag was the symbol of a country, it lost that status long before anyone alive today took a breath.

That flag , like the swastika, has taken on new meanings.
And those who want to fly it, have to reconcile their views with those new meanings.

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“ The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state.”

Adam Smith , The Wealth of Nations 1776

"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"
FDR's second Inaugural Address

This whole debate has risen because the Confederate Flag flies in the front lawn of the state capitol in Columbia.


That being the case, here's an idea. Why don't we not worry about it and let those of us that actually live in South Carolina deal with this phony, media derived issue, because that's what it is. It is nothing than the media creating news; it's a way for political candidates to try and gather votes on both sides of the issue, and it's a way for the NAACP to continue to justify their antiquated existence.

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"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

President George W. Bush, 8-5-2004

Carolina Politics Online

THIS IS REAL HOPE AND CHANGE!

The states joined the federation voluntarily. When they entered the Union, they perpetually gave up some attributes of sovereignty in doing so. Like unilateral secession since a right of unilateral secession completely invalidates every federal power and makes irrelevant any constitutional provisions. Longstanding pre-constitutional principles of contract law also forbid secession. One party can breach a contract but it takes the consent of all parties to legally rescind it.

In any event there can be no dispute about who started the civil war regardless of the legality of secession. Nobody disputes that armed groups in the southern states confiscated federal property and attacked federal troops. Those armed groups also sheltered thousands of soldiers who had deserted the federal army in violation of their oath to serve. Any one of these actions is an overt act of war.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

So you are just going to ignore my Constitution argument, ignore my arguement regarding the ratifacation of the Constitution, ignore my arguement on other states seceeding from the union and simply say what you have said before.

Yes, the Constitution was a contract. A contract in which the states entered with TWO provisions that gave them the power to leave the Union: The 10th Amendment and specific phrases in ratifying documents. What do you say to these two arguments of mine?

And, the fact that this seriously limited the power of the federal government is part of the reason that states were allowed to leave the union. If the federal government feared that their actions would cause states to leave the union, the federal government would be more hesitant in passing unfair laws.


The CSA was an independant country. The USA, while not actually firing a shot, manuervered for an attack in a base that was in the CSA. The USA, a foreign government, made war-like actions against the CSA. The CSA was simply defending itself.

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"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."
-Thomas Jefferson in his first inauguration address

Bingo, we have a winner!!! Well said, Sam!!!!

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There is no provision in the constitution for states leaving the union. The 10th amendment does no such thing. There are specific provisions for joining. So it seems pretty clear nobody envisioned legal secession. There is also no law which will not piss off someone enough to lead to secession if it is available. That is obvious from the number of threats to do so that came before the civil war. Threats which south carolina opposed when they were made by northern states. The idea that a federation of states could exist in any real world scenario if the constituent states could leave on a whim does not and has never passed the laugh test.
The only scenario in which your proposition makes sense is one in which the federation and the constitution do not.
If the southern states were in fact a sovereign country then their confiscation of US property, attacks on US soldiers, and harboring deserters are still acts of war. And all those things were done before the shelling of Sumter and in other states than just south carolina. The US was under no obligation to respect the wishes of a hostile neighbor on its borders who had just stolen 1/3 of the what used to belong to the union.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

EXACTLY! Now you've got it! NO WHERE does the Constitution prohibit states from leaving the Union. NO WHERE! Therefore, according the the 10th Amendment, the states have this power. I would like for you to explain what the 10th Amendment means. I mean, it is very clear, if the Constitution does not prohibt the states from doing something, then the states can do whatever that thing is. As you said, the Constitution does not address the issue, therefore it is not a power prohibited to the states. Again, according to the 10th Amendment, states have the power to seceede. What else could the 10th Amendment mean. And, James Madison, that Father of the Constituion seems to have had no problem with the idea of secession. I mean, he wrote the Virginia Resolutions.

Again, you completly fail to deal with the issue that states like Virginia and New York (if I remember correctly) had specific clauses in their ratifying documents that declared that they had the right to leave the union when they want to.

So, you have again failed to address the issues, here.

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"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."
-Thomas Jefferson in his first inauguration address

The clauses in the ratifying documents are irrelevant. The constitution is rendered null and void if it says what you claim it does. So yes I have addressed those issues.
On top of that, the issue of the legality of secession is irrelevant to the issue of who started the war since, as I have pointed out, the actions carried out by armed forces in the south were acts of war regardless of whether those states were still part of the union or a sovereign country.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon