This seems the most apprpriate place to post this, but if the mods feel it belongs somewhere else feel free to move it...

I was reading about McCain and his comments about the confederate flag in Carolina and the reactions to that. All that has finally prompted me to ask something that has puzzled me for years:

Why the ongoing obsession with displaying the confederate flag by some people in the south ? To me as a non American it seems a very odd thing to do. The CSA was after all a foreign country, it seceded illegally from the USA, became involved in a war that was the most devasting America has ever known in terms of casualties and material loss and is generally associated with a practice ie slavery that seems to run counter to all the ideals and values that Americans hold dear. In displaying that flag aren't the people doing so saying 'as an American citizen I owe my allegiance to a foreign country which fought a war against my home country ' if I was to be extremely....er....extreme and unforgiving I'd say that was heading down the road towards treachery.

Someone explain it to me !

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England has no eternal friends and no eternal enemies, only eternal interests - Palmerston

Hawaii's flag has the Union Jack on it. This does not mean Hawaii has any current allegience to the UK, but the UK is part of Hawaii's history. I think it's a matter of history.

Unfortunately, the whitey groups have chosen the Confederate flag to represent them. The Confederation were much more than states allowing slavery. It is a shame that the whitey groups have given this historic symbol such a bad rap. It is a part of our history - not a pretty part- but a part none the less.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

There are a lot of countries who did a lot of bad things. Germany and Japan didn't change their flags after ww2 and all former imperialist nations didn't change theirs either.

The Confederate flag represent people and also positive things like state's rights. There were many people supportive of the Confederation who wanted to abolish slavery. The two greatest commanders Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson were strongly against slavery. Lee freed his own slaves years before the war.

Well, Americans were speaking English even when at war with Great Britain. Clearly they were all traitors.

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If a neocon whines about big government wealth redistribution, just ask him what he thinks about the portion of that big government that sends aid to Israel.

Damn right, every fourth of July many of us raise a glass and wish you happy traitors day Damn colonials ....now where's my redcoat and bicorne hat got to.

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England has no eternal friends and no eternal enemies, only eternal interests - Palmerston

Lol--that's true too. And it reminds me of how that was done in the classic excellent WWII movie "The Great Escape" when the three Americans in the German POW camp made the moonshine for the rest of the British and Commonwealth nations troops encamped there on the 4th of July.

I think it's a mixed bag issue, even in the South. The flag did represent a breakaway movement to preserve slavery and it has been a continuing symbol of Jim Crow and white supremacy to many people of that mindset, and the flag--and variations of it--were even adopted by certain states to signal that mindset in the past. That said, to many--and increasingly so over time--it's been morphed into merely a symbol of Southern pride and identity, a benevolent intent. Moreover, many who see that latter intent don't want to be made to feel ashamed of being Southern or condemned by others due to past wrongs and today's racists who are a minority but unfortunately fuel a stereotype that all the South feels that way today. Thus, they want to change the public identification of the flag into their more positive and benevolent meaning.

It's not been morphed. That's what it is. Many flags are symbols of oppression for some, but symbols of pride for others. I wouldn't voluntarily wave an American flag in Bagdad, or a Dutch flag in Johannesburg.

The apologists can deny it til they're blue in the face but the confederacy was always about slavery first and foremost. Considerations of states rights etc were secondary (at best) to that cause. For at least 100 years after the end of the civil war the confederate flag was a symbol of defiance by mainstream white southerners who were determined that blacks would never escape their status as second class citizens. Given its history and its continued use to this day as a racist symbol I find it hard to believe that anyone who really thinks it through could be fooled into promoting it as a useful symbol of anything good.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

Well, first you must understand that the South did not seperate from the union illgally. No where does the Constitution prohibit the states from doing so, and this, coupled with the 10th Amendment means that the states have the power to leave the union. After all, it is a Union which implies that they constituent members have a right to leave whenever.

Also, the mainstream history likes to promote this idea that Northerners during the time of the War were paragons of racial tolerance. However, this is simply not true. The north was filled with racism. So, since they used the American flag (well, minus a few stars) would it be alright to equate the US flag with racism? No. And it is not ok to associate the Confederate flag with racism, either (no matter who is doing it.)

Now, that doesn't really explain the popularity of the flag. Well, in the South, there are still a lot of hard feelings about the war. After all, it was started by a brutal dictatoris President. It cost the South an untold number of lives and much money. In essence, the correct way to view the south and the US is to say that the United Staes conquered the South. Looking at it this way, it is clear why people still fly the flag. To us, being part of the Union is not a voulantary thing, it was forced on us.

Now, while I am 100% correct, I have a hard time believing that these are the same sentiments that your average Confederate-Flag waving southerner is trying to express. I think there might be several reasons. In the south, I mean true southerners that have think roots in the south, we take tradition seriously. So, if Jeb's "daddy" did it, then he will do it. And if Jeb's "daddy's daddy" it, then Jeb's father will do it. So, it is partly just a traditional thing. Another reason is that the "black mafia" tells us that it is a sign of racism and horrible things and that those who display it our evil. Well, this isn't something that sits well with most of these southern guys and it makes them fly it even more. Also, unfortunatly, the flag has become a symbol used by hate groups and other assorted nuts.

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"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."
-Thomas Jefferson in his first inauguration address

Sure, many in the South didn't like blacks. But I think you should consider several things. First, it is not like they were welcomed with open arms in the North. In fact, the North was pervasivly racist society. Second, many northerners didn't care about slavery, they just didn't want new states to be slave states because they would compete with them. Third, slavery had nothing to do with Lincoln starting the war. Lincoln did not care about slavery, he was only interested in keeping the union together.

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"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."
-Thomas Jefferson in his first inauguration address

That's correct. And if you read history as written by Southern historians you'll find that much more of vital economic interest to the north was at stake than slavery.

The South has the shorelines of the Atlantic ocean, the Gulf of Mexico and control of the Mississippi River where goods were shipped to the powers of Europe. Could they let the South control that?

All of a sudden the north found a moral issue and a reason to fight and kill their own countrymen.

The 'moral clause' is found in many, many issues that have resulted in war. It usually has something to do with "liberating people". Sound familar?

Thanks for the advice but I have already considered all those things. Do you have anything to say which bears on the things I actually wrote?

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

I'm not sure what you are saying but most people of the north fought to preserve the union. It was white southerners who started and fought the civil war to preserve slavery - not the north who fought to eliminate it.

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A nation of slaves is always prepared to applaud the clemency of their master who, in the abuse of absolute power, does not proceed to the utmost extremes of injustice and oppression.
Edward Gibbon

Yes! And this is why the North continued to put very high protective tarrifs on goods made by Northern industrial firms. The south totally got hosed.

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"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."
-Thomas Jefferson in his first inauguration address

Well, I wasn't really try to argue with what you were saying. I was simply pointing things out. I was simply adding my thoughts to what you said. Your post seemed to imply that the North represented some sort of ideal world of "colo-blindness." I just wanted to point out that, if that is what you did mean, that it was incorrect. If not, I just wanted to clarify. Also, I thought that you implied that the Lincoln went to war to end slavery, and that is also wrong.

Again, I wasn't really trying to argue, I was only pointing some things that needed clarifaction. Do you disagree with anything I wrote?

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"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."
-Thomas Jefferson in his first inauguration address