See, now this is exactly why I am an "apatheist".

Apatheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh, and just to muddy the waters, somewhat, I believe there is no such thing as an "agnostic". It's simply a more polite, more socially acceptable term for a basic atheist, coined to give the illusion that you haven't made up your mind yet.

I hate that term, because either you live your life as if there IS a God, or there ISN'T. One can't practically be a fence-sitter, and try to play in both pools.

And, technically, EVERYONE is an agnostic, because nobody has any conclusive proof of squat. The God Question is by its very nature unknowable (gnosis), unless you are a god yourself. Therefore, the term is pretty much meaningless, to me.

So, I am an apatheist. I don't know, and I don't really care. I conduct my life as if there isn't any gods.

Call it the Church of the Divine Shrug.

Oh, and getting back the actual topic, I expect and demand that my educational system be as value-neutral as possible. It is simply unwise for a school system to promote a religious philosophy as science - that's very close to government promotion of religion.

Current biology is neutral and has nothing to say for or against any sort of religious viewpoint. Since observable facts are contrary to a mythology that asserts the creation of the Universe in six days, that's the mythology's problem, not science's. Our kids are trusting the school system that what it teaches is factual and reliable. Evolutionary scienceand other sciences are at least testable, systematic and official, in ways that ID and other philosophies are not.

Put it this way: should we teach that pi =3 in our math classes?

Other countries are simply shocked that this whole ID vs. Evolution thing even exists. The fact that there's even a "debate" is embarassing.

Hmmmmm.......

ooooookay.........

Just because I can't prove God's existence to you doesn't mean I'm agnostic. To me and many others, He's VERY real!

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

M and Jimbo, I mean from a technical definition of the word "agnostic" itself. Gnosis = knowledge. One can't really know for absolute sure, can't actually prove jack-squat, can't formulate any sort of meaningful test, unless you possess the omniscience of a god yourself. So, for practical purposes, one either acts as if there is or isn't.

(I'll see if I can dig up that old article on it, 'splains better than I have, here.)

To me, it doesn't really matter if God's real or not. Absolutely zero impact on my daily life. (Conversely, I am happy not to care much what others believe, either.) Therefore, I simply act according to the most likely probabilities, that there isn't a God, at least certainly nothing like what the Bible describes.

The Judeo-Christian God doesn't really fit my criteria/concept of a god, anyway.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
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I still totally disagree because though I can't prove God's existence to you, it doesn't mean that I haven't seen what I feel is absolute proof myself.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

I was just bustin yer chops, Skerl.

You made what appear to be two diametrically opposing statements & I couldn't resist pointing it out.

I don't claim to know squat about anything I can't see, hear, smell, taste or touch.

Those senses are the tools we were given to discern & make judgements about the world around us.

Anything that doesn't fall into one of those categories is mere speculation.

One can call it something else if it makes one feel better, but the hard, plain truth is that nobody really "knows" anything that they can't verify via one of their five senses.

The only logical answer to the question "does God exist" is "I don't know". As far as I'm aware, this is the position of an agnostic.

Technically not. Absence of proof doesn't stop a lot of people from being convinced of the absolute correctness of their beliefs. Taking a position of faith and sticking to it is not an agnostic position, whether or not the position turns out to be correct.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

'Course!

Wouldn't be the first time....

'Zactly. So, for me, it comes down to one's actions.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
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I'd be pretty disappointed if you didn't disagree, M.

Honestly, the only thing I can really do is explain what I think, not argue how I think anyone else should.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
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Which is precisely my point as to why the term is rather silly. Nobody can possibly "know". You can believe, certainly.

I, obviously, have a difficult time holding a belief for which there is less than very reasonable probability or proof. I've never been to Antarctica, but at least I've seen pictures and maps, and it's not an unreasonably odd belief to hold. Some beliefs require "absolute" proof, others do not.

So, all this has a lot to do with the degree of reasonableness for X belief. And, I lump the paranormal/supernatural into the same category, so it's not like I just pick on religion, either.

Hmm.

Agnosticism has been called "weak atheism". Bear in mind that I consider atheists to be asserting that there is no God, which is a position that would also require some proofs, as well, although I claim theists bear that burden to prove.

But hey, it's all semantics, ultimately, and that's what make it fun.

Again, because religions are perhaps an ultimate expression of deeply personal opinion, that's a very good reason to keep it out of schools. Schools, especially, should be dealing in verifiable facts (at least from an empirical standpoint), and leave the mystical suppositions and philosophical musings to the churches. That's what they are for.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

Again, I disagree. Most born-again believers feel we know beyond a shadow of doubt that God is real because so many of us have seen His works in our lives. I've certainly had more than my fair share of prayers answered and I've witnessed things that I feel can only be explained as the work of God.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

And, I can't say you're wrong. You might be completely right. Doesn't actually affect me either way.

Since we're dealing with a deeply personal experience and its interpretations, it's not like there is any sort of test we can devise to determine it. Isn't it pretty understandable how a rather non-spiritual person could be skeptical, though?

Getting into the age-old debate is pointless, however, and this isn't really the place for it.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
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I definitely agree that there's no way to prove God's existence and skepticism is most understandable so I don't debate His existence. I was only debating your use of the word "agnostic".

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

I just dislike it, generally. Seems like fence-sitting, to me. Like a weasel-word used so as not to offend or something.

It's too bad "atheism" has become a loaded term, the same way the word "liberal" has.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)