The operative word being FEEL.

My question is... is it possible for someone to FEEL they know something beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Because if you really know something beyond a shadow of a doubt (I have ten fingers, etc.), then there is no "feeling" to it. You know what you know because it's right there in front of your face for you to see, hear, touch, taste or smell or some combination thereof.

Saying that something involves feelings is usually something that is not known for certain.

Some "beliefs" require flimsy proof? Or, perhaps we can just make a priori assumptions for the sake of discussion?

I agree that it is largely semantics, but I feel the distinction between someone who says "I don't know whether or not it exists" regarding God (or anything, for that matter) and "I know (or believe) that it does not exist" is an important one. Well, semantically speaking, anywho...

Sure - I agree with this. Teaching any sort of spirituality ought not to be done on Joe Q Public's dime.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Personally, I use "know" carefully. I use "believe" when I am very close to being sure about something. Thus, I view these two verbs' usage as not equivalent, IMO.

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I am an American. That's the way most of us put it, just matter of factly. They are plain words, those four: you could write them on your thumbnail, or sweep them clear across this bright autumn sky. But remember too, that they are more than just words. They are a way of life. So whenever you speak them; speak them firmly, speak them proudly, speak them gratefully. I am an American. ...a tradition

Maybe feel wasn't the right word. I should have said "many born-again believers believe..." But feelings do come into play, like when we have a serious problem and we place it in God's hands and then feel like the weight of the world has been lifted from our shoulders. Or maybe it's when we feel His love radiating through others. Or when we feel His presence among us. There's many times that born-again believers "feel" God but a non-believer can't comprehend it because they lack the faith needed. I have also felt the presence of demons in a troubled church and I can honestly say that that was the most terrifying experience in my entire life.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

It's OK to feel something so strongly that you are convinced of of it's truth, but I just feel the word "know" can't realistically be applied to a situation like the origin of man or the existence of God, because we've never actually had anything we could call proof.

Again, many of us born-again believers can say we "know" because we've experienced the proof that only other born-again believers will accept. However, I wouldn't push what I "know" on anyone, especially if they didn't believe in God to begin with. Instead, I respect everyone's right to believe what they wish.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

Heh. True. And, everyone has their own criteria in terms of acceptability and assumptions.

That's why this stuff never reaches any conclusions.

Point taken. But, for example, I don't know if an afterlife exists. So, my critical choice is, shall I live my life as if this might be my only one? Would it be wise to be cavalier with this one, on the off-chance that another life might exist?

Semantics are fun, but sooner or later, one HAS to make choices as to how to live. At least the tactic of practicality forces some sort of endpoint to the argument, no?

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

To me, "putting God in the driver's seat" seems perilously close to abdicating responsibility for one's choices.

I have found that my belief in myself has been sufficient, and I have no desire to relinquish my responsibilities in exchange for what can be described as "warm fuzzies".

That's just me.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

Maybe not today, but we're certainly getting close to pretty definitive answers on the first question, while completely unable to even formulate data on the other.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

It seems people don't know what a "theory" really is. Kind of sad.

-Ben

I completely disagree. I know many atheists who profess absolute certainty that there is no God. I really cannot profess such certainty. This doesn't mean I'm hedging my bets at all - as I've said before - whether God exists or not is neither here nor there to me. To my mind, in the unlikely event that a deity should exist it would have to be above the pettiness of humans, and wouldn't care too much about what we believed.


nah mate - there are plenty out there who are CERTAIN that God exists, or doesn't exist.

gnosis is knowing. agnostic implies you don't know.

fine - I'm pretty much the same - but I'm agnostic.

we are in complete agreement. I have met some anti science types here - but all schools have to comply with a curriculum that does not include myth as part of science.

see I'm agnostic - but this is pretty much the same sort of thing that I have said many times here .... but I still cannot claim to be atheist ... I have a concept of God which MIGHT ... (very small might, mind you) actually exist. but he/she/it sure aint sending me to hell - or if he/she/it did - I'd rather be there than hanging out with such a petty small minded God for all eternity!

LOL - this is one of my pet hates about religion - and some other belief systems.

I think understanding why people do things, or why things happen, is important - and religion can prevent that understanding.

I believe that God when he created the universe he thought he would make it low maintenance.. So he created a method so ingenious that it looks after itself.

Evolution; God doesn't select which speciies are created or destroyed. The enviroment we live in does that... Man has developed to look after earth and the differing species in it.

The Adam and Eve story is still true to a point. Actually Adam and Eve is still happening today as humans further evolve... Adam and Eve actually walk among us today because they will have a child who will then be in the new human race, which may be better than there parents and will take our race forward...

The difference is my interpetation of the bible.....


P.S. The world could be flat and we just enter a differing dimension everytime we circle the earth and the Moon and the Stars and just illusions.... Now thats a theory and guarantee now one can prove it wrong... But one it's not scientific...