It's not because of that. Nor is it because there is no "room". It's because creationism is unscientific.

Like creationism, ID is inherently unscientific and can therefore never be taught as a scientific anything. No matter what ID can otherwise provide, science can never be used to provide evidence of the one and only basis for ID, the designer.

Or perhaps a place in a history of religion-type class. I find ID to be an interesting phenomenon in line with all other attempts by religious congregations to maneuver their respective agendas in various arenas, - historical as well as contemporary.

I respect your right to believe anything you want but does that really mean I won't ridicule what it is you believe in? Respecting your right to believe and respecting your beliefs are two totally disjoint issues. Even if your perception of reality tells you otherwise.

What Dawkins meant was that, while the right to believe anything may be sacred, no concept should be exempt from criticism whether someone believes in it or not. And certainly not automatically so if someone happens to believe in it.


PS: Sorry if this has already been said by someone. I skipped a few pages in the thread.

And besides, how many people have you ever seen who profess to let God or Jesus take control of their lives actually do that? People steer the course of their own lives, but some of them just like to say they are acting as God directs them. Yeah, right. I guess buying that giant gas guzzling SUV or dual cab pickup truck you drive to church every Sunday instead of a more sensible, less expensive mode of transportation was God's will, eh? And all the extra money you spent on it that could've been tithed or gone to help the needy but is instead going in the pocket of the car salesman & the dealership he works for, was God's will too, I suppose? Ooooooookaaaaaaaay.......

So now you think that born-again believers shouldn't have SUV's because the "needy" could use the money they spent on it???? And do you know what tithing is? It's giving 1/10 of your income...that's off the top, not what's left over after you pay the bills so how do you know the SUV owners aren't tithing? And what's wrong with the money going to the car salesman and the dealership? Don't you think those people also need to make money? Born-again believers aren't required to take a vow of poverty so why do you begrudge them nice things?????

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

You could make the same argument about Christians who spend extra money to buy hybrid cars, drive recycling materials to a plant instead of throwing them in the garbage, or spend more money on light bulbs that use less energy. All that money wasted could have been tithed or given to help the needy. In fact, you could make this argument about anything that a Christian purchases besides food, water, and shelter.

I'm no defender of people who claim to be doing the Lord's work while decking their mega-church with big screen TV's, but your attempt here to equate modern environmentalism with traditional Christian values is a non sequitur. And, besides, Catholics are hopping on board anyway - I do believe the new and improved deadly sins list includes screwing up the environment.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

I don't think so. But, what is 'cavalier'? Your sentiment here makes sense if you're referring to dedicating one's life to some obscure religious cause or even committing suicide for whatever God one believes in. But, if 'cavalier' means a life of hedonistic choices and laziness.... well, religions certainly do their part to stop that.

This appears about to head into a discussion of Pascal's Wager

Sure, I'd say so. And, I'd imagine that one who lives exclusively by an internal set of ethics is more 'stable'. That is you don't run as much risk of having something poke a hole in your belief system, saying "It was all a big lie" and going a little off the deep end. People who become disillusioned with a religion often go to short term excesses in response (though likely "balance out" later).

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Oh, so now you want to be stingy with God???

"OK, God.... you said 10% and that's all you're getting. Not 11%, not 10.5%. I'm not giving you one penny more than I have to because I got other cool stuff I wanna buy, & I damn sure ain't gonna waste it tithing more than I'm required to. And forget that giving to the needy crap!!! But on another note..... thanks for "guiding my life", there God."

Puh-lease.

And yeah, those car dealers are desperately in need of money, because we all know that all the atheists, agnostics & secular humanists out there aren't buying new cars. Nope. Only Christians. And those dealers have to pay those former topless dancers they hire to do their commercials for them a pretty penny too, because they need to pay off the breast implants, so it's a good thing you're directing your money toward that cause rather than trying to live up to the standards of Christ by giving all you can to the poor & less fortunate. And we all know that Jesus was all about his followers living comfortable, luxurious lifestyles with all the same cool gadgets & gizmos that the rest of the non-believing world wallows in anyway, don't we?

Yep. You've got as firm a grasp on the situation as most Christians I've listened to.

Praise the Lowered!!!

Oh yes. And I used to be one of those. Happier not being one.

Agreed 100%. The Christian concept just doesn't fit mine at all.

They may think so, but unless they possess superhuman sensory qualities,they simply can't be certain.

And, let's face it, because their conclusion is desireable and pre-arrived, they each select confirming data to support it, which is exactly opposite of the scientific method.

Hence my assertion that everybody on earth is technically agnostic, rendering the term rather meaningless as a useful philosophical position.

You could hardly be anything but.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

Sure, you could make that argument if you weren't interested in anyone with a brain taking you seriously. Spending a little extra on an economical vehicle up front to save moeny in the long run while helping to keep God's creation cleaner is in no sane person's mind the equivalent of buying a giant gas sucking vehicle you don't absolutely have to have, but choose to because you want to impress people, or intimidate other drivers on the road. And the analogy of the light bulbs & gas spent to drive to the recycling center is too silly to even address.

But your last sentence is actually true. A real, honest Christian who was living their life to the letter of the Bible's admonition to Christians would, in fact do exactly that. They would devote their ENTIRE life, every waking moment of it, to serving Jesus, spreading the word, doing good works & forgoing ALL of the trappings of the heathen world including nice clothes, their own house, a car of any kind or virtually ANY material possessions whatsoever. In short, they would live a monk's existence because we have all been told that this life is only temporary & we shouldn't be concerned one iota about worldly possessions & creature comforts.

Good for the Catholics!!! But I wasn't equating modern environmentalism with traditional Christian values. I was equating WASTEFULNESS with NON Christian values. When you go out & spend $30 - 35,000.00 on a vehicle when you could've fullfilled your transportaion needs with a $15 - 20,000.00 vehicle & put a portion of the savings to a charitable cause, or helped fund your church's charitable endeavors, than you are not being much of a Christian as far as most observers I've spoken to are concerned.

But you go ahead work on your spin. I can't wait to see what you come up with next.

How convenient.

I assign no such special stewardship purpose to mankind. Granted, it'd be great if we didn't trash the place,but....

I am pleased that you aren't a Literalist, at least.

So, it doesn't bother you that the Bible is so malleable? If I were God, there'd be no possibility for ambiguity. Much smiting would occur!

I am not very interested in unfounded speculations. And, yes, that certainly is something tangible we can devise a test for, and yes, that has definitively been disproven.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

1/10 is all God asked for but many give far more than that, just as I did when I was attending church. I know this as fact since I was once employed as the church secretary/treasurer. The saying is "You can't out-give God" and I truly believe it. Our church gave 35% of it's money to missions (local and global) and though we didn't have a large membership, we were able to maintain and enlarge our buildings, provide plenty of activities for the children, help families with emergency funding, etc. The more money we gave, the more money we had coming in!

You seem to think that Christians should own nothing nice because the money could have been spent on the needy. I don't recall ever reading in the Bible that God would give me a high-paying job just so I can give everything to the poor. You sound as if we should be living in one room huts with no running water or electricity just so those "less fortunate" can live more comfortably.

BTW, many of those with large vehicles use them to transport the children of the church to and from church activities, especially in smaller churches that have no bus service.

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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand - chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride!"

Just getting at the notion that if one truly believes in an afterlife, then the mere 80 some-odd years here makes no diffrence when compared to the eternity ahead. (Not that anyone truly thinks that, but it's just an extreme example of taking the logic to the edge....)

God forbid!

Sure. And everyone finds their own way, I suppose. What I dislike most is when others demand deference and respect for their beiefs, while denigrating others. Dawkins may be a bit of a nutcase, and unreasonably angry, but many of his points are very valid.

To believers, it is simply inconceivable that someone would fail to recognize what they see as an obvious truth, as self-evident as gravity. Believers and non-believers look at it in completely opposite ways, and it's no wonder why we talk right past each other so often.

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"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right." - Ashleigh Brilliant(?)
(Voting for None Of The Above, so far...)

You seem to be applying your own moral compass to Christianity (bolded), which is fine for opinions, but not reasonable for arguments as to what is expected about Christians. If you went digging through scripture, you'd find a lot of inconsistent shit, but I'm pretty sure you'd find things about animals being here to cater to our whims and what not. Christianity is not "eco-friendly" per se, even if you feel it ought to be. As to "sillilness", I was simply applying the only criterion (money could have been spent on the poor/church) that you supplied for evaluating the purchases of Christians.

That seems a rather extreme interpretation of Christianity, but then some Christians adopt their own extremes, so I suppose what's good for the goose, and all that. But, I think the often given response to this is that perfection is not expected, but rather improvement. That is, Christians may be forgiven for their sins, and all. Convenient, maybe, but whatcha gonna do?


I'd be curious to see you support that with scripture (in fact, I'm curious to see the Pope support it). I'm speaking about the environmental angle, rather than the money angle (the Catholic Church loves money, that much is true ). That is, around the time Christianity and its traditions emerged, the issue of environmental conservation was inconceivable. So, what the founders of the religion might have said about it (and Christians and other Abrahamic religions base things heavily on this) are anyone's guess and will be conjecture.

You, ostensibly, don't think it "Christian" and so you object to it, but I suspect that it isn't the violation of Christian principles that rankles you but rather the violation of your own principles.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Generally, in "real life" I tend to avoid the subject of religion or belief, in general. It seems often to be loaded with all manner of nonsense. Coming here and discussing it without any "actual" repercussions is an alternative that wreaks less havoc in one's life.

And yeah, Dawkins does strike me as inordinately angry. I always like Carl Sagan's approach to his would-be detractors (I'm speaking of his discussion of pseudo-science - I'm not sure I remember his religious opinions. But, anger doesn't necessarily preclude a good message. I've always thought that he's made interesting points.

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Not to completely pile on, assholishly, Christianity and the Bible do have some pretty good ideas in it. Granted, you have to mine for them, and cherry-pick, but I take what's useful (and in most cases rather obvious) and co-opt it into my own overall view.

I submit, however, that as a moral guidebook, Aesop's Fables is more practical, complete, direct and accessible.

I guess the Christian concepts of God just don't fit with mine. A being that can discontinue the Timespace Continuum at a mere thought, is not going to care about what Timmy does in the bathroom. I think that Christians have a rather low bar for impressiveness - mere resurrection and multiplying loaves is pretty small potatoes, to me. Seems absurdly egocentric to t