Bizzarly the only one time i went to San Francisco, i met one lady in a queue (she was waiting for food) and she liked my hair, so she asked if she could stroke it/touch it etc, and then we got to talking about politics (it was June 2004) and she said "The reason a lot of folks here don't like Bush is because..." and just at that moment her food was ready and she went to get it, and that i think is the most civillised opinion i'll ever hear from a SF native, i would really loved to have known what she would have finished the sentence with though.

weeeeelllllllllllllllllll I guess I can agree, most folks I have met don't care much one way or another but continue to vote for the city council that is the driver behind this scrap, no pun intended. Also the booting of ROTC, the turning away of that retired Battleship as a tourist attraction, their attempts to close the one lone “war” attraction the uss pompano, a ww2 sub on the wharf.

It depends I guess just like any other city as to where in the city you go....so, yea its really no different than say la, nyc etc...in some senses.

BUT, they do have issues those don't re: a huge, ugly homeless issue, their hostility to families ( taxation, space allotments, zoning, infrastructure sux) and try being an owner of an income bearing property there...you’re screwed.

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

I guess we'll find out in November when they vote on how to name the Sewage plant.

There you go folks................ever hear of a municipality that votes on what to name a sewage treatment plant?

Just to add note to SF's vast ididocy, a sewage treatment plant takes sewage and converts it into something much better, clean and useable. So what is the message, Bush was a great improver of shit, like the new plant will be? Not a whole lot of thought went into that one, now did it?

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Admittedly, I chuckled when I read it. That's because I get the satire.

But, IMO, this ballot initiative is one of those ideas that can be funny in a bar (where the idea was in fact hatched) and other informal settings with those who agree with the 'assessment' but in reality shouldn't happen and I hope it doesn't. "Bush bashing" ought to be left to the realm of the Internet poster, the blogger, the pundit, the satirist, casual conversation, etc, as with most unflattering and/or critical political opining.

Take the POTUS James Buchanan who is buried near me in Lancaster County, PA, him being the only POTUS from PA to date. Lancaster is famous for the Amish, not him. Only the locals are ordinarily familiar with his link to their area and nobody thinks much about him either there or anywhere else except for knowing one thing if anything: he was an abysmally performing POTUS.

(for all the non-Americans most likely to be unfamiliar with him: James Buchanan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

He almost always ranks so low to be considered in the bottom 5 if not the worst of POTUSes on most rankings put out by qualified scholars. People certainly loved to bash him, and rightly so, e.g.,



But, despite helping first inflame and then virtually consent to the disintegration of the nation on the side of slavery, nobody then ever named scurrilous public places after him and they still don't today. The man will never have but a few places and things bestowed on him and people will never be singing his praises, visiting his grave in throngs, etc, but respect in quiet repose is given to him for the office he held.

For example, he has a simple and dignified grave:





His mansion home is preserved and open to the public:



The ultimate public censure to uninspiring and/or poorly performing POTUSes is either the ignomy and/or forgettableness of their Presidency. It's a permanent damnation in the history books and public consciousness. No sewage plant will overtake or outlast that verdict.

Not even General Benedict Arnold, the infamous Revolutionary hero turned traitor, who blew his chance to become a national icon forever and whose name is instead today synonymous with traitor and treason in the US, does not have official things named for him in a scandalous and impertinent manner. Likewise, he simply lies in his own ignomy in the American public consciousness. Still, the US and UK did eventually put a joint memorial window frame in his crypt at St Mary's Church, Battersea, London:



and the US has given the 'devil his due' with just one monument on the Saratoga battlefield acknowledgeing his key victory there without which the nation likely would not exist today in its present form and subsequent history:



(It represents his wounded leg in the battle, which had been previously wounded in the Battle of Quebec, that left him crippled. The rest of his body and his name are specifically deleted from the memorial given his later treason.)

The country will start moving on mentally once Bush leaves office, and his legacy will rapidly turn to the judgement of history. Naming a sewage plant after him will become stale humour pretty damn quickly even to those who find it funny at the time, and likely be a source of regret.

Worse, it provides the initial precedent of officially sanctioned scandalous and impertinent dedications concerning public figures. That's a door that shouldn't be opened. It will invite even worse with purely partisan nonsense. Lincoln, FDR, and others, for example, had their detractors too. The old cliche "If you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything at all" is the proper longstanding practice on such ideas.

I agree the 'memorial' shouldn't happen for reasons stated in my post above, but your statement really is truer in the broader sense as you indicated in the first sentence.

The fact that so many conservatives now openly bash SF so much and so broadly where it's now seen as an acceptable pasttime and punchline for anti-liberal sentiments I feel contributes to this kind of a desired backlash because, I'm certain, many people there will know it will go right up the arse of all those who just love to gratuitously bash them and their city on a regular basis. SF bashing has become altogether too common, and that's not a good development for domestic relations IMO. The red states certainly didn't like the 'Jesusland' wisecrack right after the 2004 election, etc, and IMO the nation really needs to step up its internal dialogue with each other on political conversation. All are supposed to be fellow countrymen after all, not nemeses.

Ain't that the truth?

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

This is true!

yes it will be a red letter day.

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

yes I agree with your statement, and I too have added my own knee jerk SF “oblast" commentary, I will forgive myself because I have to read about it everyday, or see it on the news, everyday.
Unfortunately our leadership isn't up to snuff either or that is our perspective leadership, where sle could one go and make comments ala "they" cling to guns or religion and be applauded (?), so in that respect, there is no respect, right from the top, and before anyone goes there, if McCain where to go to the "heartland" and make a statement along those lines that would be just as low......

__________________
No individual can plan his own existence in their view.

So the state planners must arrogate to themselves the right to manipulate any sector of the economic system if the good of “society” or the “general welfare” is paramount.

Ipso- if the rights of the individual get in the way, the rights of the individual must be sublimated.

The Road to Serfdom
FA Hayek (interpretation)


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

There's certainly merit to this sentiment IMO. SF often dishes what it takes, and that's the cyclical downward spiral.

I take a different view on the Obama comment but one fitting right into what we are discussing. When I saw it in context, I agreed with his observation because I lived where he was referring (the PA mine district) for a long time.

We generally did stick to church, guns, etc, because we felt the government would never do diddly to reverse the longstanding slide. It's been caving for 40 years in continuing collapse, getting crappier every year and nobody official ever seems sincerely interested in recovering the region. So, the local churches, hunting and fishing, the local bars, etc, was all the refuge available to get past the bleakness. Even one of my old residences is now blighted in decay along with the rest of the neighbourhood (trash strewn, abandoned and dilapidated residences, crime, closed shops, etc). I saw it in March in a curious stop when passing nearby after years of not returning--having no reason to return given it's a declining and depressed area--and it was sad to see that things went from crap to supercrap. I want Obama and McCain to recognise the plight and blight there and for once take a genuine shot at helping the region recover as best it can.

But, rather than get a real topic in need of discussion going, it turned into 'gotcha,' spin and 'false outrage' games, altogether too prominent in political discourse as a substitute for real dialogue. It's both sides too--i.e., the overkilled 'McCain's 100 year war' etc. Iraq is a serious topic in need of serious dialogue and not that kind of nonsense.

Such things will always be part of politics but when the government and its actions and inactions are running especially crappy, almost all aspects of politics in official practice and societal discussion wind up in the sewer, pardon the pun. The last POTUS election was an example of how crappy it can get when two subpar politicians IMO just run and pump up the muck to scrape by with all people getting down and bogged right in it. Despite the shenanigans I've seen from both sides in this current election, McCain and Obama have been a breath of fresh air from what I saw in 2004 and leaves me with a hope that regardless of its outcome a better page will be turned.

Wow, if anyone else defended Obama's guns and religion statement, they be smashed on this board. Good for you, Bere, for saying it so well.

I'd hope most would be able to share their experiences and most here aren't trolls and do indeed share them freely and constructively and receive the same in turn. You get what you give really. If trolling is the purpose that's all one really merits in return. Good conversation usually engenders the same from the many interested in it and the trollers just become driftwood in the threads if ignored. Some would-be trollers can even rise to the occasion if given the opportunity for decent dialogue.

I'm only passing on my own as others do so we can all get our perspectives. The beauty of online discussion is that it pools people around the nation and the world to do so. I learn much by that access every day and just try to do my part.

Once in awhile in the past certain Hollywood movies covered the depressed coal and steel areas of PA like 'The Deerhunter' and Tom Cruise's opening notable picture 'All the Right Moves.' Both showed the decline and local culture as part of the themes (economic decline, church, hunting and fishing, high school football, etc). Things have gotten much worse than those times and now almost nothing is mentioned of it.

I was hoping Obama's comment would raise awareness again but it was hijacked and spun and that really irritated me. The last thing I wanted to hear was pundits and politicians patronising me and my former area with twisting his comment on its head as if we were happy being stuck with our churches, guns, etc. Sure, I liked those aspects (especially the outdoor activities like hunting and fishing) but damn we all wanted jobs and money and did resent the neglect of politicians. Hell, they even hurt the area.

Tonight I saw Hannity on FOX playing upon that same 'cling' spin to tie it to Obama's criticism that American students aren't getting language instructions and requirements in school like Europeans do in order for them to improve their own communication skills.

Obama was right again--Americans usually don't know a second language when so many others who have a non-English native langauge who not only learn English but more.

Low expectations--especially in schools and their curriculum--have indeed contributed to this lack of knowledge. We see that truth even here on this site with the multitude of fluent English speakers from non-English speaking nations plus their knowledge of other languages.

Yet, Hannity was twisting it in his partisan spindoctoring to make it sound like Americans ought to be outraged by Obama's 'condescending attitude' towards Americans. My feeling was "What? Since when is being behind in any aspect been a promoted point of pride and acceptance and a hailed American value and aspiration?" Hannity is who POed me, protraying Americans as somehow a people that should be proud and contented to low aspirations. The America I want--and the one that succeeds--wishes to strive not slide. Even Mitt Romney, the guest, had to grudgingly concede that dog didn't hunt with Hannity's language spin.

I don't want this to be construed as a pro-Obama post although I liked his two observations I mentioned. I want it to be construed as a recognising a good idea or focus post. Hillary and McCain get their kudos and fair hearings just the same where I hear their thinking caps on and where I think they raised good and/or worthy to consider points.

Good ideas and observations ought to be viewed and treated as such and adopted no matter who raises it. Each candidate deserves a fair hearing to make their arguments too and not just be dismissed because they are from another party and/or someone wants them to lose by reason of partisan bias or prevailing ideology leanings. Nobody learns if they don't listen and believe they already have all the answers. There will always be those things but it's up to each person not to be led by the nose willingly or by default and just aim to get it right as best they can. Otherwise the nation cannot grow and preserve itself too well if at all.

now if one of you who have perfected the use of this feature wanted to clue me into how it is done... PM me... otherwise, I shall just continue on quoting the ones that interest me...

I do think however, that today I shall have two threads open at once and respond alternatively, to give you a chance to say something in between...

should you desire to, that is...

if not... then I guess my posts will just stack up...

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I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.
~~ Socrates

The multi-quote button is on the lower right, right next to the quote button. Click on several of them from various posts, then click "Post Reply".