Blasphemy as a forum rule violation

[Pogo]

Originally Posted by metalted

The Bible story says what it says, he Died on the Cross. Anything less is just an unfounded theory. But when added in with Hebrew Prophecies the fortold this event it becomes more interesting.

Interesting, perhaps, but the Jesus mythology is nonetheless unproven.

Of course, to admit that is to violate the tenets of Christian faith, which means that to maintain such faith, one is precluded from engaging in genuine debate.

Bit of a conundrum, no?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by metalted

Are we talking about proof from the Bible, or from a time machine?

The bible doesn't contain "proof" of anything...

[metalted]

Originally Posted by Kash

You could say every proselytizing religion stakes a claim in dominion over the earth, so it's not as though Islam is unique in that aspect.

Actually Biblical Christianity could care less about political domination. Its nice to have, The lesson learned from Israel is that when a Nation follows God it is blessed and protected by God, when it falls away it brings disaster.
But also that Christians will be persecuted, they will be slaughtered. And In prophecy some other Government will attempt to erradicate them. And Christ returns With wrath against those responsible and those who turned from him.

Originally Posted by Kash

However, I do find contention with your claim that Islam subtly calls for the eradication of Christianity. I have never read or seen anything that calls for wiping out either Christianity or Judaism. The only verses of violence that I have seen are in regard to response to aggression. The Quran calls for its followers to present the faith to unbelievers (much like Christians do), and if they refuse, then it will be up to God to decide their fate. In no way does it give authority to Muslims to take action against the nonbelievers.

9:30 ... [A]nd the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. . . . Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

Qur'an Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Bukhari (8:387)- "Allah's Apostle said,'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say:'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

Allah's Messenger said: "By Him (Allah) in Whose Hand my soul is, surely the son of Mary [Isa (Jesus)] will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims), and will judge mankind justly by the Law of the Quran (as a just ruler) and will break the Cross and kill pigs and abolish the Jizyah [a tax] ...." (Bukhari 3:2222)

Muslim Vol.IV p.1510...The last Hour would not come till the Muslims fight against the Jews, and the Muslims will kill them until the Jews hide themselves behind the stones and trees, and the stones and trees would speak up saying: 'O Muslim! O slave of Allah There is a Jew hiding behind me; come and kill him'. The Gharqad tree would speak, for it is the tree of the Jews."

Now I realize you said that you find the hadiths alittle dubious. now My problem with this statement that I see from time to time from Muslims is that these verses are being used, Notably in places like the Hammas Charter, also the Aussie Taliban David Hicks had these scribbled in note paper. Evidently these verses are motivating extremists. And they are very apocalyptic and uncompromising in nature.

I have interpreted "breaking the cross" as destroying christianity, "killing the pigs" as refering to infidels. Which would mean the end of the Jizyah.. because there would be no unbelievers left to pay it.

I also found verses with threats to those who ascribe partners to Allah, Trinity? and do you think the "law of the Koran" is the same as the law of Allah?

The law of Allah that you speak of isn't talking about shariah. It's talking about the message of monotheism and acknowledgment of Muhammad as the prophet. Shariah isn't something you find in the Quran or Hadiths, it's rather a man made compilation of laws that have foundation in the former texts, much like how our laws have the Constitution as their basis. So the Quran and Hadith can't call for the spread of something that was created afterwards. The fact that some Muslims threaten violence in spreading this message is no worse than Christians bombing abortion clinics in attempts to get others to follow their interpretation of Christianity. That violence doesn't stem from the religion itself, but rather from misguided followers, which is a flaw you see in every religion.

I found it interesting to discover the shariah law is actually made up of interpretations of stories of Muhammads life. The Law that a Women needs four male witnesses to prove rape (completely irrationalBTW) Came from a story that Aisha was accused of infidelity and Muhammad did not wish to believe it so He demanded more witnesses, there were three so he said 4 are needed to prove it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to go ahead and say that Islam is a peaceful religion and all that nonsense. There is certainly violence in the Quran and Hadith, as there is in the Bible and Torah. Most of the violence has to do with the actions of God in the hereafter rather than calls to violence for the followers.

The violence in the Bible primarily are against tribes that don't exist any more. and its pretty clear that its impossible to apply today. the Caananites and hiitites, various other tribes. The difference from Islam is that its open ended. for example the Bible might tell an account of how God Command the Israelites to Go against the Hittites.. but it doesn't provide any verses that say Go Kill the unbelievers who make you angry and 'oppress' you.

Thats another thing, Oppression is highly open to interpretation. Allot of black people think in this country they are being oppressed by the White man, if one could give them seemingly Koranic sense of morallity they would be perfectly justified in their own mind to kill any random white person.

[metalted]

Originally Posted by Pogo

Interesting, perhaps, but the Jesus mythology is nonetheless unproven.

Of course, to admit that is to violate the tenets of Christian faith, which means that to maintain such faith, one is precluded from engaging in genuine debate.

Bit of a conundrum, no?

its easy to say 2 billion are simply delusional and insane, but what happens when it is examined for why people believe in it?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by metalted

its easy to say 2 billion are simply delusional and insane, but what happens when it is examined for why people believe in it?

Is your position that, because a lot of people subscribe to it, it must be true?

[metalted]

Originally Posted by Steve

Is your position that, because a lot of people subscribe to it, it must be true?

no of course not, But do they believe? Nobody believes in an old book for nothing. It just doesn't work that way. What are their reasons?
Do you know for instance why Christians believe Jesus is the promised Messiah of the Jews?

[Kash]

Originally Posted by metalted

Actually Biblical Christianity could care less about political domination. Its nice to have, The lesson learned from Israel is that when a Nation follows God it is blessed and protected by God, when it falls away it brings disaster.
But also that Christians will be persecuted, they will be slaughtered. And In prophecy some other Government will attempt to erradicate them. And Christ returns With wrath against those responsible and those who turned from him.



9:30 ... [A]nd the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. . . . Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

Qur'an Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Bukhari (8:387)- "Allah's Apostle said,'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say:'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

Allah's Messenger said: "By Him (Allah) in Whose Hand my soul is, surely the son of Mary [Isa (Jesus)] will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims), and will judge mankind justly by the Law of the Quran (as a just ruler) and will break the Cross and kill pigs and abolish the Jizyah [a tax] ...." (Bukhari 3:2222)

Muslim Vol.IV p.1510...The last Hour would not come till the Muslims fight against the Jews, and the Muslims will kill them until the Jews hide themselves behind the stones and trees, and the stones and trees would speak up saying: 'O Muslim! O slave of Allah There is a Jew hiding behind me; come and kill him'. The Gharqad tree would speak, for it is the tree of the Jews."

Now I realize you said that you find the hadiths alittle dubious. now My problem with this statement that I see from time to time from Muslims is that these verses are being used, Notably in places like the Hammas Charter, also the Aussie Taliban David Hicks had these scribbled in note paper. Evidently these verses are motivating extremists. And they are very apocalyptic and uncompromising in nature.

I have interpreted "breaking the cross" as destroying christianity, "killing the pigs" as refering to infidels. Which would mean the end of the Jizyah.. because there would be no unbelievers left to pay it.

I also found verses with threats to those who ascribe partners to Allah, Trinity? and do you think the "law of the Koran" is the same as the law of Allah?



I found it interesting to discover the shariah law is actually made up of interpretations of stories of Muhammads life. The Law that a Women needs four male witnesses to prove rape (completely irrationalBTW) Came from a story that Aisha was accused of infidelity and Muhammad did not wish to believe it so He demanded more witnesses, there were three so he said 4 are needed to prove it.



The violence in the Bible primarily are against tribes that don't exist any more. and its pretty clear that its impossible to apply today. the Caananites and hiitites, various other tribes. The difference from Islam is that its open ended. for example the Bible might tell an account of how God Command the Israelites to Go against the Hittites.. but it doesn't provide any verses that say Go Kill the unbelievers who make you angry and 'oppress' you.

Thats another thing, Oppression is highly open to interpretation. Allot of black people think in this country they are being oppressed by the White man, if one could give them seemingly Koranic sense of morallity they would be perfectly justified in their own mind to kill any random white person.

In regard to the two verses you posted. With the first one, that is not a call for violence, it is a recurrent statement God uses to showcase the fact that HE will handle disbelievers. It is not a call for violence. With the second verse, it is taken out of context. That verse falls within a selection of verses that were "revealed" during the first Muslim battle against the Meccan pagans. That verse is calling for God's angels to attack the pagans in support of the Muslims. It is not a call for all Muslims to go ahead and kill people. Taking verses out of context is the primary method through which both extremists and haters distort Islam.

As for the Hadiths, I don't know what your sources are (I know you state Bukhari and Muslim, but there is no single collection as there is with the Quran, so those numbers mean nothing). Hadith are a very touchy source material. There are various levels of "authenticity" and "verification" that has been done with each Hadith. Just because you found some place that states that the Hadith is from Bukhari or Muslim does not necessarily mean that it truly is in those collections. And even if it is, it does not mean that they are of the highest level of authenticity, as all collections have the poorly vetted Hadiths in them with strict reminders that these Hadiths are either not authentic or are of very weak caliber.

I really dislike the use of Hadith as they are very easy to distort. Just take a look at the head scarves Muslim women wear. They use a Hadith as the basis for why they are required to wear it, but when one looks into the actual Hadith itself, it is a fake! Yet men have perpetuated it in the past century, most likely as a means to subjugate women.

Since those Hadiths you quoted have such hate and vitriol in them, I find it difficult to believe that they are in any way "authentic." Anyone who would use them clearly has an agenda, and you can't ignore the fact that a group like Hamas has an agenda, or is seriously midguided, which isn't as difficult to believe considering the fact that the religion is over 1400 years old.

[Pogo]

Originally Posted by metalted

its easy to say 2 billion are simply delusional and insane, but what happens when it is examined for why people believe in it?

Is it not a fact that religion propagates dogma?

That x billion people subscribe to one dogma or another is testament to the effectiveness of the religious hierarchies, IMO.

[metalted]

Originally Posted by Pogo

Is it not a fact that religion propagates dogma?

That x billion people subscribe to one dogma or another is testament to the effectiveness of the religious hierarchies, IMO.

I didn't come to find the Bible to be inspired by simply wanting to be appart of 2 billion christians.

[Pogo]

Originally Posted by metalted

I didn't come to find the Bible to be inspired by simply wanting to be appart of 2 billion christians.

Completely beside the point, which is that reason and dogma are diametrically opposed to one another. Choose one or the other, but you may not subscribe to both at the same time.

[John Drake]

Originally Posted by metalted

I didn't come to find the Bible to be inspired by simply wanting to be appart of 2 billion christians.

No, you probably found it inspired because it gave you good reason to hate most of the people in the world. I'm still unclear as to why you want to hate most of the people in the world but from the way you, and most fundies, talk, it's always been pretty clear you do, and your religion justifying this is the main reason you like it so.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by metalted

no of course not, But do they believe? Nobody believes in an old book for nothing. It just doesn't work that way. What are their reasons?
Do you know for instance why Christians believe Jesus is the promised Messiah of the Jews?

There are well over a billion Muslims in the world. And, like you say, nobody believes in an old book for nothing. How are you "right", and they're not?

You see, the issue here is one of "faith".

I have no problem with someone who subscribes to chrisitianity as a faith. It's when they decide they need to convince me that the "faith" is "truth".

If it's "truth", then that means there should be some evidence which illustrates that. There should be something tangible that one can look at and go "Oh, okay, well there's no other explanation".

However, this cannot be done with any faith, including christianity.

If there were proof that jesus died for your sins, rose from the dead, and is waiting at the right hand of the father, then the "faith" aspect of it would be gone. Once there's proof of something, the need for "faith" is gone; you know it's true based on the proof.

But there is no proof.

It's called "faith" for a reason...

[Imperator]

Originally Posted by John Drake

No, you probably found it inspired because it gave you good reason to hate most of the people in the world. I'm still unclear as to why you want to hate most of the people in the world but from the way you, and most fundies, talk, it's always been pretty clear you do, and your religion justifying this is the main reason you like it so.

its in the eyes of the beholder, one can "find" anything in the bible , koran etc.....I don't take way any espousal of hatred from it....

[mtramm]

Originally Posted by Steve

There are too many idiots in that religion who knock on my door at 8:00am on a Saturday wanting to discuss "the good book" (that happened two weeks ago).

I live one town over from where Joseph Smith, the Mormon con artist in chief was born. These Mormon social retards come past my house all the time asking me whether I want a copy of the book of Mormon, and, being the hard core atheist I am I always tell them I'm Muslim so I can get back to doing better things.

You're not alone...

[Donkey_Left]

Originally Posted by metalted

He was also stabbed by the Roman soldier.

According to the Bible, with which you are supposedly rather familiar, he was already dead when the soldier stabbed him.