Blasphemy as a forum rule violation

[John Drake]

Originally Posted by Steve

There are well over a billion Muslims in the world. And, like you say, nobody believes in an old book for nothing. How are you "right", and they're not?

You see, the issue here is one of "faith".

I have no problem with someone who subscribes to chrisitianity as a faith. It's when they decide they need to convince me that the "faith" is "truth".

If it's "truth", then that means there should be some evidence which illustrates that. There should be something tangible that one can look at and go "Oh, okay, well there's no other explanation".

However, this cannot be done with any faith, including christianity.

If there were proof that jesus died for your sins, rose from the dead, and is waiting at the right hand of the father, then the "faith" aspect of it would be gone. Once there's proof of something, the need for "faith" is gone; you know it's true based on the proof.

But there is no proof.

It's called "faith" for a reason...

God: I refuse to prove I exist, for if I prove I exist then there is no need for faith, and without faith, I am nothing

Arthur: But then the BabelFish proves you exist, because it couldn't have evolved by chance, so you do exist, which means, by your own logic, you don't

God: Oh bugger, I hadn't thought of that, (vanishes in a puff of logic)

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

[metalted]

Originally Posted by Kash

In regard to the two verses you posted. With the first one, that is not a call for violence, it is a recurrent statement God uses to showcase the fact that HE will handle disbelievers. It is not a call for violence. With the second verse, it is taken out of context. That verse falls within a selection of verses that were "revealed" during the first Muslim battle against the Meccan pagans. That verse is calling for God's angels to attack the pagans in support of the Muslims. It is not a call for all Muslims to go ahead and kill people. Taking verses out of context is the primary method through which both extremists and haters distort Islam.

The first one I agree with, it is a curse from God and does not necessarily command anything. But the second one says "THEREFOR CUT OFF THIER HEADS AND FINGERTIPS" Which In English sounds like a Command to the one reading or listening to the verse.
I can also get the verses in context out...
I mean many come from Chapters 8,9 in Koran. The ones titled in English.
"Spoils of War,Booty" and "Repentence and dispensation"

As for the Hadiths, I don't know what your sources are (I know you state Bukhari and Muslim, but there is no single collection as there is with the Quran, so those numbers mean nothing). Hadith are a very touchy source material. There are various levels of "authenticity" and "verification" that has been done with each Hadith. Just because you found some place that states that the Hadith is from Bukhari or Muslim does not necessarily mean that it truly is in those collections. And even if it is, it does not mean that they are of the highest level of authenticity, as all collections have the poorly vetted Hadiths in them with strict reminders that these Hadiths are either not authentic or are of very weak caliber.

I am looking at stuff about the Great Mahdi, and Isa's return, and allot of apocalpytic islamic sites. since there is no system to deny or refuse any of these hadiths. and many of them are in use. I can not really make any destinction between what is legit or what isn't. I just know that most muslims in the world support Palestine, and Palestines Hamas has Apocalyptic things to say about killing the Jews and establishing the law of allah over the earth. On a show a mickeymouse lookalike named Farfour was telling palestinian kids how great it would be if all the Christians and Jews in the world were under the rule of Islam while same time promoting Violence and self sacrifice singing songs about AK 47 . This message is repeated in Koran and Hadith quotes I have read.. establishing rule of Islam.
Killing unbelievers that oppress you...

Its a message repeated by Muslims I have talked too.. "Islam protects Christians an Jews, Law Islam is good." "We are being oppressed by the Zionist regime".. Brainwash, then of course the reminder of how Great spain was under islamic law.. The rallying call of "Kalipha!" There seems to be no shortage of people who believe in establishing a real government system.. That shariah law is seen as good because it serves as a deterant against crime. I can not find verses that would abrogate this interpretation of Islam. And I find it in use from Bin Laden, From Mullahs in Iran, and from Europe Britian especially and sometimes even America.
It seems to me the the so called 'peaceful or liberal muslims Have very little scriptural backing honestly. and the extremists have tons of it. Personally I believe in following the Bible to the Most Orthodox Fashion. Meaning following it to the most logical conclusion.. If I were to do the same with Islam, I am not sure I would be a 'peaceful' Muslim.

I really dislike the use of Hadith as they are very easy to distort. Just take a look at the head scarves Muslim women wear. They use a Hadith as the basis for why they are required to wear it, but when one looks into the actual Hadith itself, it is a fake! Yet men have perpetuated it in the past century, most likely as a means to subjugate women.

Since those Hadiths you quoted have such hate and vitriol in them, I find it difficult to believe that they are in any way "authentic." Anyone who would use them clearly has an agenda, and you can't ignore the fact that a group like Hamas has an agenda, or is seriously midguided, which isn't as difficult to believe considering the fact that the religion is over 1400 years old.

What do you think the Agenda is?

[metalted]

Originally Posted by John Drake

No, you probably found it inspired because it gave you good reason to hate most of the people in the world. I'm still unclear as to why you want to hate most of the people in the world but from the way you, and most fundies, talk, it's always been pretty clear you do, and your religion justifying this is the main reason you like it so.

Lol. I have put allot of thought into my conclusions. and none of the thought has to do with justifying hatred.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by metalted

Lol. I have put allot of thought into my conclusions. and none of the thought has to do with justifying hatred.

Say, Ted, anything on the whole "which people who wrote the bible actually saw the risen jesus" question yet?

Any comment on the statement that jesus was already dead when he was stabbed?

Any comment on the tip I gave you?

[metalted]

Originally Posted by Steve

There are well over a billion Muslims in the world. And, like you say, nobody believes in an old book for nothing. How are you "right", and they're not?

You see, the issue here is one of "faith".

I have no problem with someone who subscribes to chrisitianity as a faith. It's when they decide they need to convince me that the "faith" is "truth".

If it's "truth", then that means there should be some evidence which illustrates that. There should be something tangible that one can look at and go "Oh, okay, well there's no other explanation".

However, this cannot be done with any faith, including christianity.

If there were proof that jesus died for your sins, rose from the dead, and is waiting at the right hand of the father, then the "faith" aspect of it would be gone. Once there's proof of something, the need for "faith" is gone; you know it's true based on the proof.

But there is no proof.

It's called "faith" for a reason...

I have gotten to the point where I say "there is no other way"

[metalted]

Originally Posted by Steve

Say, Ted, anything on the whole "which people who wrote the bible actually saw the risen jesus" question yet?

I thought I already did this.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by metalted

I thought I already did this.

Oh, I know you thought you did, but you didn't.

What you referred to were second-hand accounts. That's not what I was looking for...

[Steve]

Originally Posted by metalted

I have gotten to the point where I say "there is no other way"

And you base that on what?

[metalted]

Originally Posted by Steve

Oh, I know you thought you did, but you didn't.

What you referred to were second-hand accounts. That's not what I was looking for...

The only time "I" or first person is used is when Jesus talks.

[metalted]

Originally Posted by metalted

The only time "I" or first person is used is when Jesus talks.

aparrently Jesus's ressurrection is what moved them to prostelize the faith, they were moping a bit after he died saying " we thought he came to redeem Israel." Its when he appeared to them, they had zeal to spread their faith and Die for God.

[metalted]

Originally Posted by Steve

And you base that on what?

prophecy, miracles, personal experience.

[Kash]

Originally Posted by metalted

The first one I agree with, it is a curse from God and does not necessarily command anything. But the second one says "THEREFOR CUT OFF THIER HEADS AND FINGERTIPS" Which In English sounds like a Command to the one reading or listening to the verse.
I can also get the verses in context out...
I mean many come from Chapters 8,9 in Koran. The ones titled in English.
"Spoils of War,Booty" and "Repentence and dispensation"

While it may certainly read like a command, it is NOT a command to humans, but rather to angels. Like I said, you have to factor in the context, and the verse directly before the one you quoted specifically showcases that God is commanding the angels to assist the Muslims, not commanding the Muslims themselves to do anything.

As for the titles, what's wrong with them? Islam claims to be not just a religion but a way of life. You can't tell me that God wouldn't include some stuff that wouldn't deal with the everyday stuff.

I am looking at stuff about the Great Mahdi, and Isa's return, and allot of apocalpytic islamic sites. since there is no system to deny or refuse any of these hadiths. and many of them are in use. I can not really make any destinction between what is legit or what isn't.

There IS a system in place to distinguish between the good and bad Hadiths. As I stated in my previous post, there are varying levels of authenticity, with long chains of transmitters. Any proper compilation of Hadiths will provide this information with every Hadith. Any time you read a Hadith without this information, take it with a grain of salt.

As for Isa's return, that's the rough equivalent of the return of Jesus. Last I checked, Christians believed in this as well.

I just know that most muslims in the world support Palestine, and Palestines Hamas has Apocalyptic things to say about killing the Jews and establishing the law of allah over the earth. On a show a mickeymouse lookalike named Farfour was telling palestinian kids how great it would be if all the Christians and Jews in the world were under the rule of Islam while same time promoting Violence and self sacrifice singing songs about AK 47 . This message is repeated in Koran and Hadith quotes I have read.. establishing rule of Islam.
Killing unbelievers that oppress you...

Its a message repeated by Muslims I have talked too.. "Islam protects Christians an Jews, Law Islam is good." "We are being oppressed by the Zionist regime".. Brainwash, then of course the reminder of how Great spain was under islamic law.. The rallying call of "Kalipha!" There seems to be no shortage of people who believe in establishing a real government system.. That shariah law is seen as good because it serves as a deterant against crime. I can not find verses that would abrogate this interpretation of Islam. And I find it in use from Bin Laden, From Mullahs in Iran, and from Europe Britian especially and sometimes even America.

This is a clear case of people with agendas manipulating the public for their own goals. They distort the Quran and take verses out of context as a means to accomplish this goal. With illiteracy rates through the roof in the Arab world, it isn't difficult to comprehend that such a large number of people could be so easily swayed by those appealing to common sensibilities. The Islam being taught in Muslim countries today is a bastardization of true Islam.

Also, you're equating the actions of Muslims to the message of Islam itself. Just because a bunch of Muslims behave a certain way doesn't mean that behavior is sanctioned by their religion. This is the case with any religion, as you are well aware of fundamentalists in every religion, whether it be Christianity, Judaism, or Hinduism. You cannot judge a religion upon the actions of some of its followers.

Also, Arab culture has historically been a bit violent. So your contention should be more with Arab culture and society rather than Islam itself. Islam provided a means to curb this violence, but with the decline of Islam since the dawn of colonialism, the violent underpinnings of Arab society have resurfaced as there is no longer anything holding it back.

It seems to me the the so called 'peaceful or liberal muslims Have very little scriptural backing honestly. and the extremists have tons of it. Personally I believe in following the Bible to the Most Orthodox Fashion. Meaning following it to the most logical conclusion.. If I were to do the same with Islam, I am not sure I would be a 'peaceful' Muslim.

On the contrary. While you may have found a handful of verses from the Quran that preach violence, there are well over 6,000 verses in the Quran, and the vast majority of them focus on submitting to a single God, good works, avoiding sin, and calls for peace. The word Islam derives from the word salam, which means peace. Granted, there is a bit more violence that there should be in a religion calling for peace, but you have to look into context. 7th century Arabia was very harsh, and weakness meant death. So there had to be some modicum of violence in the new religion to appeal to the violent sensibilities of those it wished to convert.

What do you think the Agenda is?

This is an odd question seeing as how you've already defined it. Hamas clearly wishes to see the destruction of Israel. However, this is fundamentally a secular problem as it focuses on the issue of land and not religious persecution. Groups like Hamas simply use religion as a means to bait people into violence against Israel.

[metalted]

Originally Posted by Kash

While it may certainly read like a command, it is NOT a command to humans, but rather to angels. Like I said, you have to factor in the context, and the verse directly before the one you quoted specifically showcases that God is commanding the angels to assist the Muslims, not commanding the Muslims themselves to do anything.

As for the titles, what's wrong with them? Islam claims to be not just a religion but a way of life. You can't tell me that God wouldn't include some stuff that wouldn't deal with the everyday stuff.

There is Nothing wrong with the Titles, I am saying that for the benefit of reading The Koran in Context. for example I will post 8-12 to 8-19 For reading in Context.

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
[8.14] This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.
[8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
[8.16] And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.
[8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[8.18] This, and that Allah is the weakener of the struggle of the unbelievers.
[8.19] If you demanded a judgment, the judgment has then indeed come to you; and if you desist, it will be better for you; and if you turn back (to fight), We (too) shall turn back, and your forces shall avail you nothing, though they may be many, and (know) that Allah is with the believers.

There IS a system in place to distinguish between the good and bad Hadiths. As I stated in my previous post, there are varying levels of authenticity, with long chains of transmitters. Any proper compilation of Hadiths will provide this information with every Hadith. Any time you read a Hadith without this information, take it with a grain of salt.

Do you have any Idea where one can get reputable Hadiths?

As for Isa's return, that's the rough equivalent of the return of Jesus. Last I checked, Christians believed in this as well.

Actually this is interesting. Because both Islam and Christianity have an Idea of the return of Christ. and both have an Anti Christ concept. The difference being one is man, and the other God in Christianity.

In islam He is a man and a "just ruler" to "break the cross, and kill pigs" He also will marry have kids, and die in 40 years.

The Hour will not be established until the son of Maryam (as) (i.e. ‘Isa (as)) descends amongst you as a just ruler.(Bukhari)

The Bible says about differentiating False Messiah from the True Messiah.

Then if anyone says to you,‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.—Matthew 24:23-31

And finally a prophecy of the Anti Christ from the Bible.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;...will speak out against the Highest One,.. and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand... But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

The Horn is the AntiChrist. In Biblical prophecies Beasts are described as empires and Horns as Kings of empires. He shall make were with Saints (Christians) and kill many. Alterations in times and law..Shariah, and 7th Century? Finally he loses when Christs returns with his judgment.

This is a clear case of people with agendas manipulating the public for their own goals. They distort the Quran and take verses out of context as a means to accomplish this goal. With illiteracy rates through the roof in the Arab world, it isn't difficult to comprehend that such a large number of people could be so easily swayed by those appealing to common sensibilities. The Islam being taught in Muslim countries today is a bastardization of true Islam.

On the contrary. While you may have found a handful of verses from the Quran that preach violence, there are well over 6,000 verses in the Quran, and the vast majority of them focus on submitting to a single God, good works, avoiding sin, and calls for peace. The word Islam derives from the word salam, which means peace. Granted, there is a bit more violence that there should be in a religion calling for peace, but you have to look into context. 7th century Arabia was very harsh, and weakness meant death. So there had to be some modicum of violence in the new religion to appeal to the violent sensibilities of those it wished to convert.

This is an odd question seeing as how you've already defined it. Hamas clearly wishes to see the destruction of Israel. However, this is fundamentally a secular problem as it focuses on the issue of land and not religious persecution. Groups like Hamas simply use religion as a means to bait people into violence against Israel.

I see. I am not sure I agree though.