Blasphemy as a forum rule violation

[Norrin Radd]

I find it interesting that every religion belives it is the "only" religion.

How many religions have there been in the history of the Earth?

How many people have died and suffered in the name of religion?

Sorry, but I don't buy it.

I have always found it interesting how few scientists believe in God.

Leading Scientists Still Reject God

The follow-up study reported in "Nature" reveals that the rate of belief is lower than eight decades ago. The latest survey involved 517 members of the National Academy of Sciences; half replied. When queried about belief in "personal god," only 7% responded in the affirmative, while 72.2% expressed "personal disbelief," and 20.8% expressed "doubt or agnosticism."

NEW SURVEY -- SCIENTISTS' DISBELIEF IN GOD CONTINUES TO GROW

My religion is right and everyone who doesn't believe what I believe is going to burn in HELL forever.

Nope, not buying it.

I suppose I agree with Jesse Ventura on organized religion...........

"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business."



Of course he could have made it short and sweet........

Religion is a crutch for the weak.

nuff said

[Otter]

Every religion does not believe that they are the only (true) one. That's largely a feature of the Abrahamic religions.

[Norrin Radd]

Originally Posted by Otter

Every religion does not believe that they are the only (true) one. That's largely a feature of the Abrahamic religions.

Which religions believe that members of "other" religions can go to heaven, nirvana, be reincarnated, or have an after life?

[JackMc185]

Originally Posted by Non Sequitur

Don't think of it as praying to Mary, think of it as asking Mary to pray with you. Just like someone would ask their friend to pray for them so some people ask the saints to pray for them (and since they are dead and in heaven their prayers are fairly effective). Thats the best way I have heard it explained.

Side note: I'm not actually Catholic so a true Catholic might have a different, very possibly better, explanation. This is just the best way my Protestant mind can understand the theology.

You can look at it as praying for intercession. As in the second part of the "Hail Mary" - "Holy Mary mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death"

[Otter]

Originally Posted by Norrin Radd

Which religions believe that members of "other" religions can go to heaven, nirvana, be reincarnated, or have an after life?

Unitarians don't, nor do Wiccans, or Quakers (these being the religions that I have any experience).
I believe that the majority of the religions that believe in reincarnation don't restrict event that to members of their religion.

[Non Sequitur]

Originally Posted by Otter

Unitarians don't, nor do Wiccans, or Quakers (these being the religions that I have any experience).
I believe that the majority of the religions that believe in reincarnation don't restrict event that to members of their religion.

As a Christian it can be argued fairly effectively that other religions can go to heaven.

[SMadsen]

Originally Posted by Otter

The premise of a lot of missionary work implies that not having been told does not keep someone from going to hell; hence the urgency of getting out there and converting everyone, as quickly as possible.

Yes I know, Otter. When removing the negations from the premise, it becomes the same as saying that having been told keeps someone from going to hell. Which is the same as saying that not having been told sends someone to hell. So the premise is of course that salvation rests upon the situation of whether or not a person has been told (and, naturally, what they've been told). Which is contradictory, it can be argued, to the actual tenets regarding Christian salvation.

I've repeatedly found that, although the sincerity is very real in all its illusive framework, the very basis of the idea of mission is not the salvation of others but solely the salvation of the missionary. That was what I humbly expected to encounter once again via Sneddog's comments.

[SMadsen]

Originally Posted by Non Sequitur

As a Christian it can be argued fairly effectively that other religions can go to heaven.

Can I ask how?

[Otter]

Originally Posted by SMadsen

Yes I know, Otter. When removing the negations from the premise, it becomes the same as saying that having been told keeps someone from going to hell. Which is the same as saying that not having been told sends someone to hell. So the premise is of course that salvation rests upon the situation of whether or not a person has been told (and, naturally, what they've been told). Which is contradictory, it can be argued, to the actual tenets regarding Christian salvation.

I've repeatedly found that, although the sincerity is very real in all its illusive framework, the very basis of the idea of mission is not the salvation of others but solely the salvation of the missionary. That was what I humbly expected to encounter once again via Sneddog's comments.

How is it contradictory to the tenets of Christian salvation?

This was historically the point of my break with Christianity; I recall my grandmother telling me when I was about 10 how important it was to get missionaries to the people starving in Ethiopia (during the famine in the 80's). I asked her why missionaries were more important than food, and she responed that unless they became Christians before they died they were all going to hell, even if they had never heard of Jesus, becuse believing in Jesus is the only way to heaven. It just didn't sit well with me, the idea of all these people starving to death, and then being sent to hell because the missionaries didn't get to then fast enough.

[Si modo]

Originally Posted by Otter

How is it contradictory to the tenets of Christian salvation?

This was historically the point of my break with Christianity; I recall my grandmother telling me when I was about 10 how important it was to get missionaries to the people starving in Ethiopia (during the famine in the 80's). I asked her why missionaries were more important than food, and she responed that unless they became Christians before they died they were all going to hell, even if they had never heard of Jesus, becuse believing in Jesus is the only way to heaven. It just didn't sit well with me, the idea of all these people starving to death, and then being sent to hell because the missionaries didn't get to then fast enough.

RCs don't believe that, and they are Christian.

We believe that those who live with and in grace, regardless of religion, regardless of "accepting JC into our heart", get the brass ring.

[edit] Oh, one has to die with grace, too. Forgot about that part. One can't just throw grace out. [/edit]

[Otter]

Originally Posted by Si modo

RCs don't believe that, and they are Christian.

We believe that those who live with and in grace, regardless of religion, regardless of "accepting JC into our heart", get the brass ring.

But there are Catholic missionaries, yes? Why, then?
My grandmother was Southern Baptist; I also recall her expounding on how the Catholics are 'really just pagans'. Yes, she was an extremely opinionated woman. I love her dearly, but seldom agreed with her much after I hit the age of 8 or so.

[Si modo]

Originally Posted by Otter

But there are Catholic missionaries, yes? Why, then?...

Recruitment - more $ for the collection basket.

.... My grandmother was Southern Baptist; I also recall her expounding on how the Catholics are 'really just pagans'....

That's a common sentiment. Perhaps they are right; we're pretty liberal.

.... Yes, she was an extremely opinionated woman. I love her dearly, but seldom agreed with her much after I hit the age of 8 or so.

Eh, who often agrees with their grandmother anyway? Mine was a blast, but her views were rarely mine.

[Non Sequitur]

Originally Posted by SMadsen

Can I ask how?

Well without being too long,

1) Christ came, died, and was resurrected to heal God's relationship with all creation, not a select few people who happen to say the right thing on Sunday.

2) Paul is very clear in the Book of Romans that Jews are going to heaven, thus i am willing to bet there might be other people we wouldn't normally group in the Christian category going to heaven too.

3) The Bible is full of stories that involve people who are neither Israelites nor followers of Jesus, but they still preach God's truth. I am willing to bet there might be a few modern day examples.

4) If one is justified by faith (faith being a right and full relationship with God) I bet there are many ways to arrive at such a relationship and many people have such a relationship, not just people who go to church on Sundays.

5) only God really knows. It is pure arrogance for any human to say they know who isn't going to heaven. God is judge, not me.

I believe that there are many paths to a relationship with God, just a true Christian life is the best path. Certainly not the only path though.

[SMadsen]

Originally Posted by Non Sequitur

Well without being too long,

1) Christ came, died, and was resurrected to heal God's relationship with all creation, not a select few people who happen to say the right thing on Sunday.

2) Paul is very clear in the Book of Romans that Jews are going to heaven, thus i am willing to bet there might be other people we wouldn't normally group in the Christian category going to heaven too.

3) The Bible is full of stories that involve people who are neither Israelites nor followers of Jesus, but they still preach God's truth. I am willing to bet there might be a few modern day examples.

4) If one is justified by faith (faith being a right and full relationship with God) I bet there are many ways to arrive at such a relationship and many people have such a relationship, not just people who go to church on Sundays.

5) only God really knows. It is pure arrogance for any human to say they know who isn't going to heaven. God is judge, not me.

I believe that there are many paths to a relationship with God, just a true Christian life is the best path. Certainly not the only path though.

Excellent, thanks. The briefness is also appreciated.

I'm tempted to respond to each point but to keep it short as well how about, say, the aforementioned tribe(s) that with one hundred per cent certainty has no knowledge of Christian life, salvation, heaven and hell, yet alone the Judeo-Christian deity? Will you call for sensus divinitatus in such cases and simply claim that any odd religion is, in fact, a relationship with the deity that you call God or will you claim that they can't possibly get to heaven without having been "told" by people who have such knowledge (cf. previous post from Sneddog)?

[SMadsen]

Originally Posted by Otter

How is it contradictory to the tenets of Christian salvation?

Literally, there are quite a few criteria for salvation in the Bible but most seem to be subjected to arbitrary interpretation (with one of them being a renouncement of wealth and property, it can hardly be a surprise) but faith and faith alone seems to be the constant and basic criterion. IOW, there's nothing one can do except have faith. And, since faith is a personal thing, that means there's even less other people can do. Add to that no. 1 and 5 in Non Sequitur's post above, - that none in "all creation" is excluded from the potential prospect of salvation and that the deity is the sole judge - and one is left with the 'conundrum' of missionary work.

Originally Posted by Otter

This was historically the point of my break with Christianity; I recall my grandmother telling me when I was about 10 how important it was to get missionaries to the people starving in Ethiopia (during the famine in the 80's). I asked her why missionaries were more important than food, and she responed that unless they became Christians before they died they were all going to hell, even if they had never heard of Jesus, becuse believing in Jesus is the only way to heaven. It just didn't sit well with me, the idea of all these people starving to death, and then being sent to hell because the missionaries didn't get to then fast enough.

Exactly.