Freedom is "measured" or reckoned . . . just like a polynomial.

Ask yourself . . . where can I go . . .

Can I go there anytime . . .

Can I take people there with me . . . and how many . . .

Can I take people of ALL religions . . . all skin tones . . . who speak all tongues

etc.

Freedom measured . . .

If you want more than you have . . . you take it . . . people die . . . that is freedom's price.

How's it goin Tree Hugger?

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Hatred enfolds us
Inculcates the minds with its heresy
Laymen enfold us
Clemency arrives to set you free


And as the night turns into day
Will the sun illuminate your way
Or will the nightmares come home to stay
Xavier's love lies in chains...

-- Dead Can Dance

True, you can measure political freedom, but the value of political freedom is, in my opinion, constructed largely by nationalists trying to value their countries strength higher than it rightfully should. There is a lot of things going on in the United States that actually deprive people of freedom, but we ignore those because they fall outside of the definition of freedom that we were taught in school.

And, I'm doing good, thanks for asking.

How have you been, Xavier?

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Yes, the little green fist up there is a symbol of Earth First! No, I'm not an eco-terrorist, nor do I agree with eco-terrorism...I just thought it looked cool.

The way I see it, Freedom is preserved by people asserting their freedom and soldiers abroad defending it from foreign threats.

Freedom is obtained when the common man stands up and says (either with guns or with words) that he will no longer be denied of his freedom

people cant always defend themselves with words when the other guy has a gun though

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Hardcore Conservative !

I said Conservative not necessarly Republican or Democrat. Liberals are in both of those parties.

Doin Good . . .

You're absolutely correct . . . I failed to mention that social education defines the parameters of our pecerptions of freedom . . . which our politicians are constantly updating . . . thanks for adding that . . . if freedom is defined for us . . . by men such as Cheney . . . and bin Laden . . . we are doomed . . . what do you think . . . shouldn't the people define their own tenets of freedom . . . draw their own boundaries without manipulation and lurid coaxing from Washington?

__________________



Hatred enfolds us
Inculcates the minds with its heresy
Laymen enfold us
Clemency arrives to set you free


And as the night turns into day
Will the sun illuminate your way
Or will the nightmares come home to stay
Xavier's love lies in chains...

-- Dead Can Dance

I think each persons version of freedom is whats reality to them...

Just like each can see a cloud and come up with an interpretation of what it is.

Whats freedom to me might not be whats freedom to you and might seem opressive.

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Hardcore Conservative !

I said Conservative not necessarly Republican or Democrat. Liberals are in both of those parties.

wow this morning i find a 2 page NO partisan bashing cool thread.......well except that drunk one i posted to spedyer last night that one sucks(sorry dude was sober one post and tanked the next one didnt drink much but i had just gotten done running so i think that was it!!!!)

will come back tomorrow and see how long it lasted till tomorrow all be good going on a little vacation with the wife

Problem is that it's not a real poll. It's far too complicated an issue to narrow down to the "choices" presented.

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Right now, as a lesbian I have more freedom in a country like Spain where GLT can marry, adopt all the children they want and be 100% respected as citizens, not here where the evangelical christian talibans control the gov. ,they keep repeating the word 'freedom', a propaganda mantra to make us believe we are all so cute and special

The expression plays on the homograph "free" and the questions seems to ask if freedom (the ability to excercise options at one's discretion) is free (can be claimed with nothing offered by trade). I guess the question could be rephrased as "Does the ability to choose cost anything?"

The answer to that question is certainly "yes" which means that the answer to the original question is "No, freedom isn't free."

The question is problematic in that "freedom" is very nebulous. If I'm confined to a jail cell, I have the freedom to urinate in the toilet or to sit Indian style on the ground, but I do not have the freedom to leave my cell. If I live in America, I have the freedom to stand in front of city hall with a sign and voice my disgust, but I do not have the freedom to shoot my crossbow at my neighbor as he walks to his car. The reason that I don't have this freedom is that forces more powerful than myself (law enforcement agencies) will punish me when I do so.

But, if I had enough money, or perhaps a well outfitted militia and a private island, I would have the freedom to do this. So, freedom is a commodity that can be bought and sold (or taken by force).

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

then move to spain lol

no just kidding

go spout off about whatever you feel its your rights :0

I however may disagee with you on some issues

I dont use those catch phrases hate words like youevangelical christian talibans control the gov

I like to discuss issues

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Hardcore Conservative !

I said Conservative not necessarly Republican or Democrat. Liberals are in both of those parties.

Very well spoken! The question which needs to be addressed first is: Which freedom? Gay people enjoy more freedom in Cuba than in many states in the USA.

As has been discussed several times, "freedom" is a difficult word to fully define and it is open to much philosophical interpretation. If one subscribes to the doctrine of free will, then I would say that freedom is the degree to which an individual can exercise their free will. Of course, we will probably never be completely free, in that if I have a will to jump out a window and begin to fly, physical reality will dictate that I cannot.

If we are talking about political freedoms, then it is not free for anyone, in my opinion. If a dictator wants complete political control - that is, freedom to do whatever he wishes - then he must use whatever resources and forces he has at his disposal to gain and maintain that power to exercise his will. It is likewise for an ordinary citizen; we must be vigilant against power-mongers, people that want more freedom at the expense of our own. The responsibility for maintaining, or gaining, freedom for the masses cannot be put solely into the hands of soldiers, or solely into the hands of wordsmiths - it is a duty for "the people" in its entirety. Without articulate authors and poets, how will the soldiers know what they are fighting for? Without the soldiers, how will the dreams of writers be realized? Without the hope and the good faith of the masses, of civil society, how would the writers and soldiers have any legitimacy? All has a role to perform in the achievement and keeping of freedom.

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No man is an island...
Each man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in Mankind.
And therefore, never send to know
For whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
—John Donne

Freedom is a beautiful abstract idea. When I was growing up and I learned about the Holocaust, the Soviet Union, China, Eastern Europe, I was in awe of the freedom we have in the USA. We can travel across this huge country without anyone's permission, if we desire, except our parent's if we are young. We can hitchhike (well it's true, that's illegal in some states), drive, take amtrak, greyhound without special papers, without permission from the government, without the government knowing what we are up to. We can be who we want to be, we can learn what we desire, we can do anything, we are Americans, we are free and it's fucking amazing. This is what I saw with young eyes. I loved it and I thanked the universe for the gift of being born in the USA.

Freedom is about being able to say what you want, free speech, you can criticize the government without consequence, you can march and protest and tell the government how you feel. The press can write about the government without consequence. Freedom is being able to marry the person you love. Freedom is being able to express yourself as an artist, with paint, words, music, acting, in any way you like. "The government should be afraid of the people, the people should not be afraid of the government." Some wise person once said (I forgot who). Jefferson or Franklin maybe?

Recently we have seen FBI agents spying on people in their living rooms eating cookies planning peace rallies.

We have seen peaceful American people on government terror watch lists, people that do not agree with the US government at this time.

We have seen our courts rule that the press can be charged with printing classified information instead of holding only the leaker accountable. This affects a free press very badly.

We see people who want to marry their soul mate not free to do so just because of a belief in a religion BY OTHER PEOPLE. I can't relate, being hetero, but I am empathetic. I would be enraged and depressed if a government tried to prevent me from marrying my true love. How dare they?

We are seeing US persons being spied on without warrants, the law being broken by the people we elect to make and enforce the law.

These things are not solved with guns and bombs. And so, I voted No; Freedom is provided by those who use their freedom of speech to challenge the government but with a signing statement This is only because we have our founding fathers to thank for giving us the best constitution in the world and for our patriotic Americans in the past who fought to aquire this freedom in the first place. Guns were needed then, but now, our voices are needed, desperatly. Use your vote. Vote for our freedom and our constitutional rights.

Great thread Rakkasan. Cheers.

Freedom . . . Samantha . . . you are a coruscant, megalithic patriot . . . your words thieve my breath . . . you galvanize . . . you give hope.

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Hatred enfolds us
Inculcates the minds with its heresy
Laymen enfold us
Clemency arrives to set you free


And as the night turns into day
Will the sun illuminate your way
Or will the nightmares come home to stay
Xavier's love lies in chains...

-- Dead Can Dance