Car bomb kills*75 in crowded Baghdad square - CNN.com

It was timed to kill Shiia as they left prayers.

This is not the fault of the Americans. This atrocity lays at the feet of the Iraqis.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

Couple of things I find puzzling:

How many car bombs were killing Shias before the US invaded Iraq to "liberate" them?

How do you explain why Shias oppose US presence and support attacks on the US occupiers?

__________________
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."
~Thomas Jefferson

"There is Still No Such Thing As a Fair Tax"

Car bombs weren't needed as oppression of the Shia was official state practice. State-sanctioned chemical weapons attacks, torture, executions and the like were the order of the day.

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Where do you read that? It's mass murder - no different maiming towns with white phosphorus or dropping MOABs from 30,000 ft. What difference does it make to the victim whether it was a carpet bomb that killed him or a roadside bomb?

?

The fact is no one was loading cars with bombs before the US got there. No one was bombing Shias in their mosques before the US got there. Shia shrines were not being desecrated. There was no Takfiri/Wahabi presence in Iraq before the US got there.

That's a common misconception dispersed by proponents of the war. There's no doubt Saddam was a brutal dictator - but he really didn't care if he oppressed Shias or Sunnis. He's gassed thousands of Sunnis.

60% of the Baath party was Shia. Shias have held top cabinet posts in Saddam's Ba'ath party - from oil ministry to defense and everything in between. Shias fought for him against Iran. The state companies in the military industry were mostly run by Shias. Shias and Sunnis belong to the same tribes in Iraq and intermarriage is pretty common.

Yes - he has tortured and killed Shias who opposed him but it really didn't matter if the opposer was Shia or Sunni. He executed his own family members for opposing him.

And today - everything is on a larger scale.

Shias are still being executed on a daily basis - only now with roadside bombs, Saddam's torture chambers in Abu Ghraib are now run by US troops. Roadside bombs and carnage in Shia mosques is the order of the day.

__________________
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."
~Thomas Jefferson

"There is Still No Such Thing As a Fair Tax"

Great. Equal opportunity genocide. Not sure that helps your cause.

Yep. Of course, let's not forget that Shias are doing their fair share of killing too. There's that equal opportunity for you.

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Despite all the Shia massacres 82% of Shias still oppose US presence and 62% approve of attacks on the US led forces.

We're still waiting for those roses and the ticker tape parades our troops were promised upon their arrival in Iraq.

__________________
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."
~Thomas Jefferson

"There is Still No Such Thing As a Fair Tax"

Actually it does further my cause.

It's already established that US presence is a contributing factor to much of the violence and strife in Iraq - US withdrawal is key to regaining stability and peace in the Middle East and also on the War On Terror. That's what most Americans want, that's what most Iraqis want. If we insist on remaining and "surges" we're only increasing the violence.

In spite of the potential problems that may or may not come with our withdrawal, the greater mistake was going in the first place. We need to think more about how to avoid these military encounters, rather than dwelling on the complications that result when we meddle in the affairs of others with no moral or legal authority to do so. We need less blame game and more reflection about the root cause of our aggressive foreign policy.

It is a sad thing that Shias and Sunnis are at each other's necks. But both Shia and Sunni are united when it comes to the fact that they want us out us out of Iraq even the moderates (Sistani). The "surges" will not help quell the violence in Iraq. Nor the civil strife.

80% of Shia and Sunni are united when they consider Israel and the United States to be the biggest external threats to their security whereas only 6% see Iran as a threat:

Arabs Less Worried About Iran - by Jim Lobe

So if our goal is to end the strife - a withdrawal plan would be the first thing to do.

__________________
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."
~Thomas Jefferson

"There is Still No Such Thing As a Fair Tax"

How does the fact that Saddam was an equal opportunity genocidal maniac further your cause? The Iraqi people were terrorized by the state prior to Saddam's downfall. They are now being terrorized by each other along with foreign jihadists.

It seems that the blame game is precisely what you're playing.

That being said, I think it is important to blame the actual perpetrators of violence, first and foremost. Blaming others for their conduct only serves to excuse, justify and encourage it.

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Withdrawal out of Iraq is the first step, that's my cause - it was a mistake to attack Iraq, as soon we realize that - it will be the best path to ending the violence.

A review of the week's violence so far:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L19240036.htm

* BAGHDAD - A truck bomb killed at least 78 people and wounded 224 near the Shi'ite Khilani mosque in central Baghdad, police said. The mosque was badly damaged in the blast.

* BAGHDAD - One U.S. soldier was killed and three wounded when their patrol was struck by a roadside bomb south of Baghdad on Monday, the U.S. military said.

* DIYALA - One U.S. soldier was killed and two wounded by a roadside bomb attack near their vehicle while conducting operations in Diyala province, the U.S. military said.

BAQUBA - The U.S. military said it had killed 22 suspected militants in the early hours of a major offensive against al Qaeda in Iraq around Baquba, 65 km (40 miles) north of Baghdad, in Diyala province. The offensive involves 10,000 soldiers and is one of the military's biggest against the Sunni Islamist militant group in Iraq.

NASSIRIYA - Two days of fighting between gunmen loyal to Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr and Iraqi police have killed 35 people and wounded 125 in Nassiriya, south of Baghdad, a hospital doctor said.

BAGHDAD - The Iraqi army killed 15 suspected insurgents and arrested 65 others during the past 24 hours in different districts of Baghdad, the Defence Ministry said.

TAL AFAR - A woman and a child were killed by a mortar attack in the town of Tal Afar, 420 km (260 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

MOSUL - Gunmen killed a female student from the University of Mosul, north of Baghdad, police said.

NEAR BAQUBA - Gunmen attacked a Kurdish army unit and killed five soldiers and wounded 15 near Baquba on Monday, said Jabar Yawir, a spokesman for the Kurdish Peshmerga militia.

BAGHDAD - The bodies of 33 people were found shot in different districts of Baghdad on Monday, police said.

ISKANDARIYA - Two tribal leaders were killed and their driver wounded by a roadside bomb in the town of Iskandariya, 40 km (25 miles) south of Baghdad, police said.

__________________
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."
~Thomas Jefferson

"There is Still No Such Thing As a Fair Tax"

In any crime the planner(s)/facilitator(s) are judged with guilt equal to those who actually commit the crime regardless of whether or not they were involved in the actual execution of the crime. It seems obvious that there would be no violence between Shia and Sunni, Shia/Sunni and the US without the US invasion, destruction and ongoing occupation of Iraq. How does logic arrive at no blame for the US when the US initiated and perpetuates the violence with their continued presence and actions? Wouldn't blaming solely Iraqis for a circumstance we created be a weak rationalization to escape the stigma of US failure?

Part of the question, though, is whether this violence was inevitable. There are other ways that the Iraqi government could have collapsed. Do you suppose that the Sunni and Shiia wouldn't be killing each other if Hussein had just died and nobody had taken his place with sufficient power to suppress the violence?

Yes, the killing is possible because the US eliminated the Iraqi power structure. However, I submit that the Sunni and Shiia involved are more responsible, for they're the ones actually committing the violence.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears

OK, and how does Saddam being an equal opportunity genocidal maniac further that cause?

@ pramjockey: Well said.

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I'm sure martians could have created the same circumstances but since that's not what actually transpired what did happen will have to suffice for discussion facts. The former Iraq government did collapse due to US efforts. Just as the current Iraq government has for all practical purposes in the current situation collapsed due to US presence.

The US facilitated Shia power by blocking all Sunni participation in the new military and government by restricting participation to non-Baathist Sunni. Sunni rebelled against such oppression, the puppet Iraq government has all but formally failed due to corruption and in power Shia pursuing revenge while the US is still killing Iraqis, active resistance participants and civilians. How could one logically remove the US from equal responsibility for the current chaos and violence? Because they're not pulling all the triggers, just the ones that supposedly represent what the US desires? As I stated in my prior post, the whole thing is a crime in progress with no innocent participants including the US. To exclude the US from responsibility is using the blame factor in an irresponsible manner as an attempt to rationalize failed US intent.

I was clarifying your misconception that Shias were actually treated like Jews were by Nazis.

__________________
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."
~Thomas Jefferson

"There is Still No Such Thing As a Fair Tax"

I don't think that the inevitable death of Sddam Hussein is along the same lines of Martians.

This is a fair point. I don't absolve the US for its role. We never should have gone into Iraq. We sure as shit shouldn't have gone in without having listened to the experts, and without having a plan. I'm not sure that our being there will help prevent any deaths now, either.

However, there are some who just want to blame the US, or the US and "Zionists." I don't think that's fair either. Just like I don't believe that a crappy childhood excuses criminal behavior, I don't believe that the US invasion excuses the mass murder that the Iraqis are committing on themselves.

__________________
When they come a wull staun ma groon
Staun ma groon al nae be afraid
Thoughts awe hame tak awa ma fear
Sweat an bluid hide ma veil awe tears