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War & Peace A forum to discuss the current conflict with Iraq, North Korea, and the war on terrorism, as well as military/defense policy in general.

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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2008
moon's Avatar
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Re: Slaughter of Afghan civilians; Marine tribunal opens

Quote:
Is this related to the Fallujah action? If it is, I have a little tid-bit of info for you on that one. While the actions technically met the rules of engagement, and technically fit in with the Law of Land Warfare, it certainly wasn't what I would have done.
Do I condone it? No, I don't.
Disgusted by it? Once again, no.
Self-puffed marines who aren't disgusted by cold-blooded murder aren't my sort of company. You ain't connected to the Raping 101st, is you ?
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  #107 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2008
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Re: Slaughter of Afghan civilians; Marine tribunal opens

well if you aint disgusted by cold blood murder, where do you get off getting superior and all? Heres your head, whats your hurry.

then there is something about being self puffed, or is it best to just be a plain blowhard eh what?
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2008
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Feb 2007
Location: Southern Oregon
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Re: Slaughter of Afghan civilians; Marine tribunal opens

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeMarine View Post
I haven't shouted anywhere.

As most other countries, or when another country or the UN begs us to pull their asses out of another sling. Yes, America has not always been altruistic in our actions, but for the most part we try to be.

Yes. And you shouldn't see it the same way I do. You should feel YOUR country is the best on the planet.
How can someone feel that when his/her country's leadership has made policy decisions that aren't in the best interests of the citizenry of his/her country?
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2008
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Location: US
Posts: 1,066

   
Re: Slaughter of Afghan civilians; Marine tribunal opens

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americano View Post
Again, why would I willfully put myself in a position of having people attempting to torture and/or kill me? I chose a vocation I felt would offer me the best rewards I was capable of achieving and can assure you, thanks to older people advising me, emotion was completely removed from that decision.

When counseling people seeking advice on their path in life I find it intellectually dishonest to consider recommending a vocation where they put their life at risk when commanded to do so with no input or decision as to the logic and reasoning behind such commands. You chose such a vocation and yet refuse any criticism of the orders you follow, preferring to defer criticism with statements of 'people should do what I do to understand what I do' with seemingly no understanding that a majority of any population prefers to avoid what you do. As your vocation requires you unquestionably following someone else's orders without your input or opinion, why do you feel it necessary to emotionally defend those orders when someone disagrees with the intent and results of following those orders? You're not personally responsible for anything but following and executing someone else's orders, a job you chose.
Simply not true. Once again, you display your ignorance of the military culture.
When a mature, trained, Infantry Platoon prepares for a deliberate action, almost everyone in the Platoon has a part in coming up with the scheme of maneuver. It helps build confidence in the plan, and helps train the juniors to take the place of the seniors, and helps in the maturing process of the juniors.

In meeting engagements ( where the action isn't deliberate ), all in the platoon carry out things called " Immediate Action Drills" with absolutly no guidance given, that is the training we conduct. Each individual acts for the group, and is responsible for their actions when all is said and done. Junior ranking men are given wide latitude in the actions they take to accomplish the mission. The days of strict regimented actions have been gone for almost two decades. De-centralized command and control, along with maneuver warfare, is the way we operate now.

Additionally, anyone has the right, at any time, to not follow an order they are given, especially if they feel it is unlawfull. You must have the COURAGE to stand behind your principle and voice your opinion, even when the pressure comes down.

One of my primary jobs as a Marine SNCO is to temper the commands of my Officers, and ensure they don't step over the line in their zealousness, I enforce discipline within the platoon, regardless of rank. I have often counter-manded the orders of Officers.

As far as willfully putting yourself into situations you don't like? Doesn't bother me. Just don't cast blame when you don't have the facts to do so.
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2008
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
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Re: Slaughter of Afghan civilians; Marine tribunal opens

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americano View Post
How can someone feel that when his/her country's leadership has made policy decisions that aren't in the best interests of the citizenry of his/her country?
Because, in America, we vote into office what we want, and we have a few processes for getting rid of what we don't want.

If your "leadership" doesn't represent you, vote 'em out, move, or exercise what the Constitution says you can.
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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2008
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Re: Slaughter of Afghan civilians; Marine tribunal opens

SomeMarine;
Quote:
Because, in America, we vote into office what we want, and we have a few processes for getting rid of what we don't want.
Courts Martial appear to have fallen on their arse as an exit route for garbage.
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2008
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
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Re: Slaughter of Afghan civilians; Marine tribunal opens

Quote:
Originally Posted by moon View Post
Self-puffed marines who aren't disgusted by cold-blooded murder aren't my sort of company. You ain't connected to the Raping 101st, is you ?
The 101st is an Army outfit, not Marine.
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2008
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Location: US
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Re: Slaughter of Afghan civilians; Marine tribunal opens

Quote:
Originally Posted by moon View Post
SomeMarine;


Courts Martial appear to have fallen on their arse as an exit route for garbage.
? So, now troops are voted in?
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2008
moon's Avatar
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Member Since: Mar 2004
Location: Cyberia
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Re: Slaughter of Afghan civilians; Marine tribunal opens

Quote:
The 101st is an Army outfit, not Marine.
Just as well to disassociate oneself.
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2008
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Location: US
Posts: 1,066

   
Re: Slaughter of Afghan civilians; Marine tribunal opens

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeMarine View Post
Simply not true. Once again, you display your ignorance of the military culture.
When a mature, trained, Infantry Platoon prepares for a deliberate action, almost everyone in the Platoon has a part in coming up with the scheme of maneuver. It helps build confidence in the plan, and helps train the juniors to take the place of the seniors, and helps in the maturing process of the juniors.

In meeting engagements ( where the action isn't deliberate ), all in the platoon carry out things called " Immediate Action Drills" with absolutly no guidance given, that is the training we conduct. Each individual acts for the group, and is responsible for their actions when all is said and done. Junior ranking men are given wide latitude in the actions they take to accomplish the mission. The days of strict regimented actions have been gone for almost two decades. De-centralized command and control, along with maneuver warfare, is the way we operate now.

Additionally, anyone has the right, at any time, to not follow an order they are given, especially if they feel it is unlawfull. You must have the COURAGE to stand behind your principle and voice your opinion, even when the pressure comes down.

One of my primary jobs as a Marine SNCO is to temper the commands of my Officers, and ensure they don't step over the line in their zealousness, I enforce discipline within the platoon, regardless of rank. I have often counter-manded the orders of Officers.

As far as willfully putting yourself into situations you don't like? Doesn't bother me. Just don't cast blame when you don't have the facts to do so.
Any questions, concerns, or comments, Moon?

Apologies, Moon, should have said Americano.
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2008
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Feb 2007
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 5,653

   
Re: Slaughter of Afghan civilians; Marine tribunal opens

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeMarine View Post
Simply not true. Once again, you display your ignorance of the military culture.
When a mature, trained, Infantry Platoon prepares for a deliberate action, almost everyone in the Platoon has a part in coming up with the scheme of maneuver. It helps build confidence in the plan, and helps train the juniors to take the place of the seniors, and helps in the maturing process of the juniors.

In meeting engagements ( where the action isn't deliberate ), all in the platoon carry out things called " Immediate Action Drills" with absolutly no guidance given, that is the training we conduct. Each individual acts for the group, and is responsible for their actions when all is said and done. Junior ranking men are given wide latitude in the actions they take to accomplish the mission. The days of strict regimented actions have been gone for almost two decades. De-centralized command and control, along with maneuver warfare, is the way we operate now.

Additionally, anyone has the right, at any time, to not follow an order they are given, especially if they feel it is unlawfull. You must have the COURAGE to stand behind your principle and voice your opinion, even when the pressure comes down.

One of my primary jobs as a Marine SNCO is to temper the commands of my Officers, and ensure they don't step over the line in their zealousness, I enforce discipline within the platoon, regardless of rank. I have often counter-manded the orders of Officers.

As far as willfully putting yourself into situations you don't like? Doesn't bother me. Just don't cast blame when you don't have the facts to do so.
Marine life holds zero interest for me. It's your job, not mine. As to casting blame, I've read about enough verified US incidents resulting in dead civilians occurring in Afghanistan and Iraq to be assured it does happen on a regular basis. Including the US puppet president of Afghanistan complaining about that same circumstance.

Let me poise this question, yet unanswered by other military buffs, why are there no UK combat forces civilian killings? More experience in colonization efforts?
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2008
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Location: US
Posts: 1,066

   
Re: Slaughter of Afghan civilians; Marine tribunal opens

Quote:
Originally Posted by Americano View Post
Marine life holds zero interest for me. It's your job, not mine. As to casting blame, I've read about enough verified US incidents resulting in dead civilians occurring in Afghanistan and Iraq to be assured it does happen on a regular basis. Including the US puppet president of Afghanistan complaining about that same circumstance.

Let me poise this question, yet unanswered by other military buffs, why are there no UK combat forces civilian killings? More experience in colonization efforts?
Civilians do get killed by UK forces. It just isn't the drum beat people like to hear, so they go mostly un-reported.

The British, in my experience and what other units who work with them say, do conduct aggressive patrolling. ( aggressive in the sense they actually get out there and do it every day, all day. Not in the sense they go out spoiling for a fight )

For the rest of the groups though, they DO NOT perform aggressive patrolling, and only go out when made to. Or, they are there as engineers. Or, they are in areas that are mostly friendly to them, which reduces their chances of fucking something up.

Very few countries have Operational Areas they are directly responsible for, most countries are there in a support roles., and the vast majority of their forces never leave the FOBS. So, the heaviest burden comes down to America to bear, as it should. We have more folks there, and we are the ones that pushed to go in.
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