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War & Peace A forum to discuss the current conflict with Iraq, North Korea, and the war on terrorism, as well as military/defense policy in general.

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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2008
goober's Avatar
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Re: Surprising ratio of losses in Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multicolor View Post
We know that At least 4,029 American soldiers have died during the war in Iraq, and another 29,600 have been wounded in action.

According to recent estimations, at least 16,500 insurgents, militia, suicide bombers, and other fighters have been killed during the war.

Usually, the ratio between KIA and WIA is 1:2. That would give us an estimated 50,000 Iraq insurgency casualties.

If we compare that with the 35,000 US casualties, the relations are surprisingly even.

To the US casualties should be added more than 10,000 KIA among the Iraq Security Forces, with probably another 20,000 WIA, for a total of 30,000 casualties.

So the insurgency appears to have inflicted 60,000 casualties on the US and Iraq Security Forces, against maybe 50,000 own casualties.

My question is how come the US forces apparently have failed to deal an enemy which is much lighter armed, probably far less well trained, and without any air support, the usual kill ratio of 5 to 10 insurgency casualties for each casualty sustained by a regular and modern army.

In the Vietnam war, there were 58,000 US troops KIA and 184,000 South Vietnamese troops KIA, against 1.1 million North Vietnamese or FNL soldiers or guerillas KIA. The ratio was nearly 1:5.

But in Iraq, the casualty ratio appears to be only 1:1 or even worse.

Whatever you may think of the war in Iraq, this represents a quite dramatic new trend, and the reasons to this deserve to be examined.

This is the source which I used:

Casualties of the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's the best source I could find. If someone else could find a better sorce, it would be welcome.
The ratio of WIA/KIA would be much higher for the US than for the insurgency or even the Iraqi Army.
The US has many wounded with horrific wounds that would have died in previous wars, but battlefield medical care, rapid evacuation to well staffed and equipped medical units save many lives.
The Iraqi army has no medics, no evac helicopters no state of the art facilities to treat the wounded, it's up to the other members of a unit to take a wounded Iraqi soldier either to a hospital or a US medical facility. The insurgency would be even worse off, as they would lack access to even the Iraqi hospitals.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2008
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Re: Surprising ratio of losses in Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multicolor View Post
According to recent estimations, at least 16,500 insurgents, militia, suicide bombers, and other fighters have been killed during the war.
Could you explain the method you (or your source) used to produce that ridiculous estimation/guess?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
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Member Since: May 2008
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Re: Surprising ratio of losses in Iraq

These stats are meaningless. The vast majority of U.S. casualties are from non-combat accidents and IED's. The estimates on enemy casualties are just that, estimates. It's all meaningless bunk.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Benjamin Disraeli
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
Citizen

 
Member Since: Jun 2008
Location: Long Beach, CA
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Re: Surprising ratio of losses in Iraq

The criteria you used for judging the number of US personnel WIA is a pretty high number... Purple Hearts are awarded (signifying a WIA, and probably the basis for the number wikipedia uses) if the skin is broken, yet I don't think that would be considered 'wounded' in the traditional sense that would employ your 1:2 ratio. So a more accurate number of wounded US personnel would be those wounded and not able to return to duty within 72 hours (13,xxx according to wikipedia) or maybe even those just medically evacuated (8,xxx). I don't think medal chasing or concern for more benefits applies to the Iraqi insurgency, so that would eliminate a good number of the US casualties in the 29,xxx figure you used. This obviously doesn't apply to everyone, but it's certainly behooves you to have an injury recorded in your record book if you ever want to get treatment, compensation, or recognition for it.

Also, I think the terrorist number of WIA/KIA might be higher if they actually went to hospitals to be treated (and thus recorded). Hospitals being an apparatus of the gov't (which you certainly don't support). According to the U.S. military, the number of insurgents killed is closer to 23,000 as of June 2008. This is probably inflated too, because body counts in general are pretty vague, especially when they involve explosions, and indiscriminate numbers of people.

Another thing - terrorists aren't rational about life and death. Most are poor, probably single, without families... while the U.S. military is rich by comparison, have families, and generally want to live. It's just a job for most of us...

Last edited by ddare0351; 06-17-2008 at 10:45 PM.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2008
County Executive

 
Member Since: Feb 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 343

   
Re: Surprising ratio of losses in Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multicolor View Post
We know that At least 4,029 American soldiers have died during the war in Iraq, and another 29,600 have been wounded in action.

According to recent estimations, at least 16,500 insurgents, militia, suicide bombers, and other fighters have been killed during the war.

Usually, the ratio between KIA and WIA is 1:2. That would give us an estimated 50,000 Iraq insurgency casualties.

If we compare that with the 35,000 US casualties, the relations are surprisingly even.

To the US casualties should be added more than 10,000 KIA among the Iraq Security Forces, with probably another 20,000 WIA, for a total of 30,000 casualties.

So the insurgency appears to have inflicted 60,000 casualties on the US and Iraq Security Forces, against maybe 50,000 own casualties.

My question is how come the US forces apparently have failed to deal an enemy which is much lighter armed, probably far less well trained, and without any air support, the usual kill ratio of 5 to 10 insurgency casualties for each casualty sustained by a regular and modern army.

In the Vietnam war, there were 58,000 US troops KIA and 184,000 South Vietnamese troops KIA, against 1.1 million North Vietnamese or FNL soldiers or guerillas KIA. The ratio was nearly 1:5.

But in Iraq, the casualty ratio appears to be only 1:1 or even worse.

Whatever you may think of the war in Iraq, this represents a quite dramatic new trend, and the reasons to this deserve to be examined.

This is the source which I used:

Casualties of the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's the best source I could find. If someone else could find a better sorce, it would be welcome.
Your numbers are skewed, every source I could find said that insurgent death totals could not be relied upon. So, unless you have reliable numbers your ratio is meaningless.

But by all standards this war has seen fewer US casualties and wounded than any other war.
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