As for the points he raised, I already answered them but I will do again (some people may not go to the other thread to check my answers).

When I mentioned the "Heroic" point, this was distinguished from the other part (the attack). I would have said the same thing if the attacker was my worst enemy. If he was to go alone into a building knowing there will be plenty of soldiers to face and knowing he will die in the end (as this attacker obviously knew).... this is damn heroic. If this is not heroic then I dont kno what is.

Would you go into a building full of armed men waiting to kill you and you go in there knowing you will die also!

The second issue I raised was the nature of the attack and the target. The target is obvious, armed IDF students in the building. The seminary has a history of supporting and providing research for settlement expansions.... this is a valid target.

So the target is valid and the UN security counsil agree this is not a "terrorism" attack.

Now, the attacker will not go in there pointing his rifle and asking "which one of you is 18+"...."which one of you is considered a kid".... "come on I got an objective and some of you look armed and young... so quick tell me how old you are".

It is true that some in there were seeking education, unarmed and were probably killed. They could have been a child or an adult, they probably even disagreed with settlement expansion and were there to research this issue. In this case, this is unfortunate and you can consider this as a case of collateral damage.

But the fact is, there were plenty of IDF soldiers (even young ones I dont know what the minimum age for a soldier is in Israel). And the nature of the seminary and its program says alot about it. So all this made it a valid target. Do you think the management and the owners of this seminary did not kno it was a target? The other fact is.... it was a student who killed the attacker... AN ARMED STUDENT. Are students ment to be armed? You tell me!!

The other issue is.... and we may disagree here..... would you kill an armed enemy soldier if he was 15 years old? Ask yourself this... why is he armed? (am not saying the 15 year old who was killed was armed, I dont know to be honest)......Who is responsible for his death? Should he be armed in the first place? If he is taking IDF training I dont see how he is innocent. What is he taking IDF training for? To play games with palestinians afterwards?

Also, should innocent israelis be around IDF soldiers? IDF soldiers could be attacked at any one time. Same scenario with Hamas militants and their houses,... should they have their families living in their houses knowing they will be bombarded at any time? I would pass some of the responsibility for the death of those families on the militants themselves. Its that simple. Militants using civilians places knowing they can be attacked at any moment are cowards.

Its a different case when one hamas militant walks into a school and that school which is full of children is bombarded. This is a different scenario completely.

I am talking here about some guys (young or old) walking into a seminary that is well known to be a valid target and is full of IDF soldiers/students.

So this is my personal definition of colateral damage and it is unfortunate. But am sure the attacker went in there knowing he will have plenty of IDF soldiers to shoot at and was not specifically looking for 15 year olds to shoot.

Thats the end and I will not repeat my answers over and over.

Again I will reconfirm one more time, I am against killing innocent people, whether Israeli, budhist, chinese, whatever faith, race, nationality they are. And I have condemned Hamas attacks before, and I have condemned suicide bombings before and will continue to do that.

I cannot say I have seen enough condemnations from pro-Americans/pro-israelis here regarding the targetting of civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine.

I admit Matt has comdemned some Israeli attacks before.... but I have not seen clear condemnations regarding the scores of civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe patriotism has blinded him and affected his judgement.

WS.

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"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom"- Malcom X

Of course is it - you like Hamas, ergo the people around them are "innocent".

You hate Israelis, so the people around them are not "innocent", and therefore killing them is "heroic".

It is "unfortunate" or "VERY HEROIC"? Logically, it cannot be both.

How can you claim to be against something that you claim is "VERY HEROIC" and defend so vehemently?

And this has what to do with your calling the murder of a 15 year old boy "VERY HEROIC"?

Maybe you just can't read - I've condemned civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. But you assume I haven't, because you want to assume I haven't.

You're trying to have it both ways here, and that just isn't logical. Either the murder of this 15 year old boy (whom you acknowledge may well have been unarmed) was something you condemn, or it was "VERY HEROIC". It cannot simultaneously be both.

Matt

You didnt have to delete all the post Matt. You could have edited the bit that bothered you.

Oh well, I guess I was right about the baiting issue. Anything I will write will be deleted regarding this so thanks for limiting my freedom of speech to what you like to see.

WS.

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"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom"- Malcom X

Your entire post was comprised of two things.

1. An untrue claim about moderation actions (a rule violation)
2. Name-calling

It was deleted in accordance with the forum rules. It has nothing to do with your ideology, nor censoring your point of view. It's simply a requirement that you post in accordance with the forum rules.

I am leaving your post above (although it is also a forum rules violation) here, along with this response to prevent your playing the martyr.

Now, kindly cease the drama and return to the topic.

Matt

My post only included a couple of lines at the end which you could have edited/deleted and left the post where it is.

Did you have to delete the whole post where I gave my reply to Choco regarding the "Baiting" ??

Fair enough, you dont like name calling I got that. My issue is, you deleted the whole post.

WS.

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"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom"- Malcom X

If you continue to delete my posts without any valid reason by creating rules out of the blue, I will delete my membership and leave this forum. I criticised you for baiting and you broke a rule there its right there above. You didnt like my post so you deleted it. You cant take criticism? Or you decided to abuse your power all of a sudden.

You also claimed in PM that I am demanding you to follow my religion? I quote from the PM:

Can you please show me where I have asked or demanded that you conform to my religion?

WS.

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"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom"- Malcom X

As I've already told you, feel free to re-post your comments on the Allah "issue" if you like. I'll not fall into the trap of performing the heavy editing of your post that is needed and have you screaming about how the post was edited and not what you said.

For the last time, stop discussing moderation actions. If you want to re-post your Allah bit, feel free.

Matt

How can I repost it when you have deleted it from my CP and from everywhere else.

You have stepped the line Matt, you could have just edited the post ... I cant remember word for word what I said. But anyway, you baited and you continue to bait. You are breaking forum rules but ok thats fine. I will refrain from posting in this thread since you class any post critical of you as rule breaking.

I would appreciate it if you dont delete any of the posts above.

WS.

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"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom"- Malcom X

This is the deleted post (which was addressed to Choco) with the bits that angered Matt removed/edited:

Its not the first time Matt uses the name of Allah (swt) to bait. I just ignore him, he knows this. We had a long argument (a while back) about his attempts to offend me using my religion or using God's name in a provokative way. At the end of the day we are discussing politics and there was no need for him to bring Allah (swt) into this.

I will add that baiting breaks forum rules, and these rules apply to all members and moderators alike.

Now my contribution to this thread is over.

WS.

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"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom"- Malcom X

Oh, my God, Allah, Buddah and Jaweh!

I have PM'd you the entire post you are complaining about, along with a detailed explanation of why it was deleted. And you still go and post this nonsense.

Wow.

Since you've decided to play this game, let's air out the reasons your post was deleted, shall we?

These are the specific comments in your post that caused it to be deleted:

Personal attack.

Discussion of moderation actions. Also a blatantly untrue statement, as you had only received a single warning prior to this, and no points were issued.

Name-calling.

Since your entire post was only 4 sentences long, deleting the majority of your post would open the path to you claiming the meaning of your post had been changed.

You're not the first to play that game, WS.

In the time since you posted the deleted post, you have gone on to repeatedly discuss moderation actions in the forum. Fair minded observers will note that I did not assign you infractions for those deliberate violations, and have gone out of my way to explain to you why your post was removed.

If there was a shred of truth to your repeated claims that I am being unfair to you, then I would have deleted your posts and issued you the points for them.

So, let's end the drama, WS. You were told all of this via PM before you posted the last post.

Matt

Yanqui, go home.



Shoot each other.

Well the following post was also deleted I dont know what rule this one broke this time:


You can do whatever you want. You deleted the follow-up post and then reposted it again quickly. You think I didnt notice? Maybe you felt guilty or somethin I dont know why you reposted it.

I will leave it at that. People here can claim whatever they want from my posts. I am not here to play a name calling game neither am i here to throw personal attacks. My style is know in this forum, and anyone can check my posts.

You are the one who is trying to get personal with me by bringing "Allah" into a political discussion. You have also tried to bait and provoke me but I did not fall for your traps. I ignore them numerous times.

You forgot to answer my question about where I have asked u or demanded that you conform to my religion. Please answer this here or in PM if you want. I have never ever asked anyone to follow any religion in this forum. I asked for proof so I am waiting.

You can delete this post if you wish as well. I am outa here for now.

WS.

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"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom"- Malcom X

No, all engaged in the conflict are deemed not innocent by WS, on bith sides.




Your logic is faulty. Of course it can. Unfortunate for one, heroic for the other.



Because he is against violence in general but can still recognise heroic actions. Much like we respect the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.



Its a pointing out of the need for balance.


It is logical. In the same way we praise our military whom we are for, then cause large scale deaths, which we are against.

WS you have acted with reason here. I wish you well.

because you tarred me absent frame of reference or even allowing me to answer as to the veracity of my post.......you condemned first, then sought examination later, so inho, you deserve the derision you received.

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"The captain has turned off the `No Dubbing' sign. You are free to speak any language you choose."