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War & Peace A forum to discuss the current conflict with Iraq, North Korea, and the war on terrorism, as well as military/defense policy in general.

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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
Imperator's Avatar
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocobot View Post

It seems WS contests the innocence of these students,in this example. Much like few would complain if an armed Palestinian 15 year old were to be killed.
well thats revealing, mark me not surprised...go ahead, keep digging.
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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
moon's Avatar
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

More Afghan children killed by international terrorists;

Quote:
A family of four, including two children, have been killed in an overnight raid by international troops, a police official and witnesses said.

Residents in Hud Kheil in the east of the capital said one of the two children was eight months old and grenades killed the family members during a joint Afghan-US special forces operation.

Al Jazeera English - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Afghan family killed in house raid
Yanqui, go home.
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
Chocobot's Avatar
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2008
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperator View Post
because you tarred me absent frame of reference or even allowing me to answer as to the veracity of my post.......you condemned first, then sought examination later, so inho, you deserve the derision you received.
Firstly, I received no derision or little of consequence anyway.

Secondly, are you seriously contending you were not underhand? If you can tell me why you think you werent being underhand but in fact you were perfectly up front and relevent to the discussion Im all ears. Or eyes, as it were..
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
Chocobot's Avatar
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperator View Post
well thats revealing, mark me not surprised...go ahead, keep digging.
Care to explain your revelation and the logic behind it?
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
Chocobot's Avatar
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

Quote:
Originally Posted by moon View Post
More Afghan children killed by international terrorists;



Yanqui, go home.
Even your own link said NATO forces were not involved.

We have UN permission to be there.

You go home from Tibet and stop threatening Taiwan then we can talk eh?
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
Speaker of the House

 
Member Since: Mar 2006
Location: California
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California     Tahiti

Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

60 Minutes did a piece on this last night. Is there no sense of irony? Interesting how constant judgements are made on the value of human life thousands of times a day. Is there not something odd about a nation purportedly promoting democracy yet lauding its role as a cold, calculating, excecutioner because of all the hard work that goes into deciding which civilians will die today? Maybe this article should have been titled, "the thoughtful excecutioner of the 21st century." Has a nice ring to it don't ya think?

Quote:
We learned there are two kinds of targets: deliberate targets, which are analyzed for days and watched for patterns of civilians coming and going, and immediate targets, such as when troops are in combat and need air support. In both cases, civilian casualties are estimated in advance and it's up to the commander on the ground to decide whether the strike is worth the cost.

"We rely on those commanders to make the assessment at the time of what the requirement is. He assesses proportionality. He assesses the validity of the military target," Crowder explains.

.................................................. .

"There's this macabre kind of calculus that the military goes through on every air strike, where they try to figure out how many dead civilians is dead bad guy worth," says Marc Garlasco, who knows the calculus of civilian casualties as well as anyone.

At the Pentagon, Garlasco was chief of high value targeting at the start of the Iraq war. He told 60 Minutes how many civilians he was allowed to kill around each high-value target -- targets like Saddam Hussein and his leadership.

"Our number was 30. So, for example, Saddam Hussein. If you're gonna kill up to 29 people in a strike against Saddam Hussein, that's not a problem," Garlasco explains. "But once you hit that number 30, we actually had to go to either President Bush, or Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld."

Garlasco says, before the invasion of Iraq, he recommended 50 air strikes aimed at high-value targets -- Iraqi officials.

But he says none of the targets on the list were actually killed. Instead, he says, "a couple of hundred civilians at least" were killed.

.................................................. .

"I don't think people really appreciate the gymnastics that the U.S. military goes through in order to make sure that they're not killing civilians," Garlasco points out.

I'm sure the man with dead children who's missing a limb will gratefully say, "Well, at least I have one arm left, thank god for US military gymnastics." Macabre is an understatement.

Bombing Afghanistan, Afghan President Tells 60 Minutes That Too Many Civilians Are Being Killed - CBS News
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
President

 
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullshit View Post
60 Minutes did a piece on this last night. Is there no sense of irony? Interesting how constant judgements are made on the value of human life thousands of times a day. Is there not something odd about a nation purportedly promoting democracy yet lauding its role as a cold, calculating, excecutioner because of all the hard work that goes into deciding which civilians will die today? Maybe this article should have been titled, "the thoughtful excecutioner of the 21st century." Has a nice ring to it don't ya think?




I'm sure the man with dead children who's missing a limb will gratefully say, "Well, at least I have one arm left, thank god for US military gymnastics." Macabre is an understatement.

Bombing Afghanistan, Afghan President Tells 60 Minutes That Too Many Civilians Are Being Killed - CBS News
Out of curiosity, did 60 Minutes include the DoD's statement from last week in their piece?
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
Speaker of the House

 
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

I don't know. However the main focus of the story was not about that airstrike but a smaller one on a village just outside a miltary outpost.
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

Quote:
Nato-led troops have killed three Afghan children and injured seven during artillery fire in Afghanistan's eastern province of Paktika.

Nato officials said that the attack on Monday happened by accident

Al Jazeera English - CENTRAL/S. ASIA - Afghan children killed by Nato fire
The Pashtun are right. It's US-led invaders who are the terrorists.



These people will never accept invasion nor cease to hunt down collaborators.

Yanqui, go home.

Last edited by moon; 09-01-2008 at 03:56 PM.
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
President

 
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

Quote:
Originally Posted by moon View Post
I agree with the Pashtun. It's US-led invaders who are the terrorists....
Tell us something new.

Quote:
.... Yanqui, go home.
*yawn*
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
Chocobot's Avatar
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

Quote:
Originally Posted by moon View Post
The Pashtun are right. It's US-led invaders who are the terrorists.

Yanqui, go home.
Actually its the Pashtun themselves who are the invaders. theyve been seeking to rule Af for decades.
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
The Republicrat's Avatar
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

I have sorrow for the children and innocent families that were harmed in any operations by my fine country's military. That said, whilst these terrorists hide among the innocent and use them as shields and fodder, there is little I could ever expect other than this to happen. They don't care about collateral damage as a result of a strike. It only helps their cause. If you feel so inclined to question how the U.S./Afghani SpecOps could have done this charge without hurting the undeserving people, perhaps your anger should be pointed towards the cowards who hide amongst them.
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
President

 
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

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Originally Posted by The Republicrat View Post
I have sorrow for the children and innocent families that were harmed in any operations by my fine country's military. That said, whilst these terrorists hide among the innocent and use them as shields and fodder, there is little I could ever expect other than this to happen.
Indeed, I don't expect the US not to kill women and children. But ask yourself this: what if terrorists attacked a US military target, but could only find a bomb that was big enough to wipe out whole states? Would you say the same thing about the terrorists as you say about the US troops now? What if the 9/11 hijackers were really only trying to kill a member of the US military who was inside one of the buildings? Would some of those civilians simply be "collateral damage?"
Quote:
They don't care about collateral damage as a result of a strike. It only helps their cause. If you feel so inclined to question how the U.S./Afghani SpecOps could have done this charge without hurting the undeserving people, perhaps your anger should be pointed towards the cowards who hide amongst them.
I point my finger towards both the terrorists and the US troops. Both bring terror and are often horrible human beings. An air strike is one of the less accurate methods to conduct an attack, so of course you will kill civilians if they exist in the area. It's like trying to kill a fly in someone's house by bombarding the town with a howitzer. You KNOW you will kill civilians. You KNOW there are more accurate ways to do it. But you kill the civilians anyway. It's a means to an end, but so is the job of a hitman, bank robber or hired insurgent. But hey, keep blaming the terrorists for the high crime of "not caring about collateral damage" while conveniently leaving out the people who actually dropped the bombs.
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slon View Post
Indeed, I don't expect the US not to kill women and children. But ask yourself this: what if terrorists attacked a US military target, but could only find a bomb that was big enough to wipe out whole states? Would you say the same thing about the terrorists as you say about the US troops now? What if the 9/11 hijackers were really only trying to kill a member of the US military who was inside one of the buildings? Would some of those civilians simply be "collateral damage?"
I point my finger towards both the terrorists and the US troops. Both bring terror and are often horrible human beings. An air strike is one of the less accurate methods to conduct an attack, so of course you will kill civilians if they exist in the area. It's like trying to kill a fly in someone's house by bombarding the town with a howitzer. You KNOW you will kill civilians. You KNOW there are more accurate ways to do it. But you kill the civilians anyway. It's a means to an end, but so is the job of a hitman, bank robber or hired insurgent. But hey, keep blaming the terrorists for the high crime of "not caring about collateral damage" while conveniently leaving out the people who actually dropped the bombs.
I do understand where you are coming from, one man's savior is another's satan. There is no reason to believe that anybody associated with 9/11 had anything other than innocent civilians as targets. Unfortunately U.S. troops have to rely on intel given to them by people who may not have the success of the West in that region in their utmost interest. Are you asking if I could sit by and watch as my family burned to death from a weapon that was not meant for them? No, I am not that naive. What I am saying is that the world arena is watching very closely. I grew up with children from Asian, Europe, Africa and everything between the near and far east. It is the bad apples we are concerned with here. The Radical Islamic Extremist can not be toyed with. Any man who will destroy his own people for a cause cannot be dealt with as you would deal with men in any other part of the planet.
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  #135 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2008
President

 
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Re: UN confirms 90 civilians killed in US airstrike

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Republicrat View Post
I do understand where you are coming from, one man's savior is another's satan. There is no reason to believe that anybody associated with 9/11 had anything other than innocent civilians as targets.
I didn't make a statement, I asked a question. There could very easily have been a military person in the WTC, and the 9/11 hijackers could have very easily given it as their reason for the attack. Please go back and answer it.
Quote:
Unfortunately U.S. troops have to rely on intel given to them by people who may not have the success of the West in that region in their utmost interest. Are you asking if I could sit by and watch as my family burned to death from a weapon that was not meant for them?
That's not what I asked, no. Here are the questions again:
what if terrorists attacked a US military target, but could only find a bomb that was big enough to wipe out whole states? Would you say the same thing about the terrorists as you say about the US troops now? What if the 9/11 hijackers were really only trying to kill a member of the US military who was inside one of the buildings? Would some of those civilians simply be "collateral damage?"
Quote:
No, I am not that naive.
Good, but it's still not what I asked. I'm hoping that you don't need something like that to happen to you before you take a rational position on the matter.
Quote:
What I am saying is that the world arena is watching very closely. I grew up with children from Asian, Europe, Africa and everything between the near and far east. It is the bad apples we are concerned with here.
Actually, my concern is the innocent civilians that were killed indiscriminately.
Quote:
The Radical Islamic Extremist can not be toyed with. Any man who will destroy his own people for a cause cannot be dealt with as you would deal with men in any other part of the planet.
Well, we're not really discussing how to deal with them, but rather the "90 civilians killed in US airstrike." Now, can you please address the questions in my post?
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