Mumbai style attack could easily occur here - Page 3 - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum

chassisman · #31 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Drake

Which is exactly and precisely what William Jefferson Clinton did, and you all called him a liberal wienie for it. Oh, wait, he didn't stand up and beat his chest before and after and tell the terrorists what he was gonna do and then brag about what he'd done. He recognized that terrorists are most profitably fought in secret, but then he was more concerned about actually saving American lives, not making a big and ineffectual show that costs more than it saves just to get votes.

Shit, why haven't I thought of this. I'm going to get freighter full of Haitians and some Zodiacs right away.

Oh, wait, the territorial waters are two HUNDRED miles out, not 13 any more.

Gee, this is still brilliant tho. I mean noone will ever notice a several thousand ton unregistered freighter with no papers just trundling up and down the shore. All our satellites and radar are useless, of course. I wonder why the Germans never thought of landing saboteurs from subs, or why smuggling isn't the biggest industry in the US

Jefferson Christsmas why don't you just go and actually look for them under your bed, you're more likely to find them there.

Clinton didn't do shit, look at the attacks that occurred under his admin.

EagleSeven · #32 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wisdom_Seeker

Ermm I think they are already dead EagleSeven, apart frm one who is caught. But you and I know that death is not the solution since they came with the intention to die

The solution is elsewhere as I suggested. You lack understanding of how these attackers function... they are not afraid of death. Hello!!!

Dont give me that crap about the Pentagon. As soon as 9/11 happened, those bloodthirsty aliens in the Pentagon couldnt wait to start a war... then another war......two wars under the Bush Admin.

You are asking me to choose how to die? Or to choose who the killer is?

All that sophisticated weaponry you brag about and then there is such a high number of civilian deaths. Something does not add up no?

WS.

You'll find a surprising number of Iraqi civillian deaths were caused by suicide bombers who missed their mark. We generally don't target malls, theaters, temples, and the like just for fun and impact. But such a point is lost on you. Don't you realize that the civillian body count in Iraq is not just civillians killed by US soldiers, but civillians killed by the insurgency, as well? People were so angry at the insurgents that events like the Anbar Awakening took place.
Iraq Body Count

Also, look at that number. 90k after nearly 6 years of fighting! And that's with the insurgents targeting innocent civillians on purpose!

By contrast, look to Vietnam, before we had modern smart weapons. Our bombing campaign against the north, Operation Rolling Thunder, lasted for three years. The US estimates that we killed upwards of 180k civillians in just those three years, due to air-raids alone! The Vietnamese estimate that we killed closer to a million, although their estimates likely include Vietnamese and Vietcong soldiers.

On the communist side, after the US pulled out, over 150k South Vietnamese went "missing" during the final communist push into the south. In net, both sides lost millions!

Now, put those numbers into perspective. In Vietnam, the US lost roughly 60,000 troops, and Vietnamese casualty estimates are upwards of 3,000,000. In WWII, over about seven years, 72,000,000 people died.

The war in Iraq, six years in, has resulted in 4,000 US troop deaths and 90,000 civillian deaths (killed by both sides).

The Iraq war would have to continue for 198 more years to have the same number of casaulties as in Vietnam.
The Iraq war would have to continue for 765 years, or seven centuries, to have casaulty counts like WWII.

You keep on telling me to be rational and think. The numbers don't appear to support your emotional arguments. Could you please stop your emotional pleas and coldy, rationaly think about those numbers, then get back to me?

chassisman · #33 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wisdom_Seeker

None of you suggested any reasonable solutions... apart from childish irrational thinking... like "lets attack everybody and forget about collateral damage".... these kinda emotional led reactions lead to stupidity and ignorance.

Fight the public war in Afghanistan and run covert ops inside Pakistan. Fund them to sky's the limit, and set them loose with no rules whatsoever.
That is called a level playing field.

You can call it stupid or ignorant, but if we aren't willing to do that, we might as well stay home and wring our hands.

metalted · #34 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wisdom_Seeker

Injustice breeds injustice. Evil breeds evil. Extremism breeds extremism. .

This is only excuseable when Muslims react this way, but not Americans?

Free people should only be concerned with defending themselves, not looking into the irrational motivations of barbarians.

animeshpandeya · #35 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wisdom_Seeker

This is uncalled for. I read every word you wrote and was ready to respond then you went and spoilt the ending with your emotional mumbo jumbo. I am not interested in what you have to say. The insults are unecessary. You dont know me and I dont know you.

I understand you are a little upset since you are an Indian but you must remain calm, focused and rational. We are all adults here I hope so lets not turn this into a school playground with such insults.

It is laughable to claim that India offers equal rights to its citizens. What!! You havnt heard of social classes and castes there? Even religious classes within the population!.

Anyways thats another topic. My points were in relation to Kashmir and India's dirty involvement there. It has blood on its hands, this is a well known fact.

WS.

Well I have been following your posts on this forum and you don't have anything new to say .. all you do is keep repeating the same mantra of justifying these kinds of terrorist attacks ...

Since your screen name is "Wisdom Seeker" I would suggest that you go and seek some more wisdom about the history of Kashmir especially the role played by Pakistan in stoking the fires there by providing arms and ammunition to the terrorists there ... Like you said .. there are two sides to a coin ...

By your logic .. it should be the Dalits (who are the most oppressed in India) who should be carrying out these attacks ... or for that matter most of the world terrorism should originate from Africa ... last I heard OBL was a millionaire and so were the people who are complicit with him in all terrorist attacks ...

Anyways .. I have nothing more to say to you ...

Rhys · #36 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

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Originally Posted by chassisman

Do you think I should put the constitution above my own life? Fuck that.

“Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security” Ben Franklin

metalted · #37 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys

“Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security” Ben Franklin

our Constitution does not Apply to the enemies of the United States of America.

Hafke · #38 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by metalted

This is only excuseable when Muslims react this way, but not Americans?

You see, people like that hold the mostly Caucasian populations to higher standards than the mostly non-Caucasian populations. They would never attempt to justify American attrocities on these grounds (even though it could be done) because there is the assumption that Americans are rational and should be expected to act like grown ups.

John Drake · #39 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by chassisman

Clinton didn't do shit, look at the attacks that occurred under his admin.

Yes he did, and what is the relationship? Just because I attack some terrorists doesn't mean there aren't others I know nothing about.

Clinton went after the terrorists just like you recommend to. If his efforts to pass legislation drying up their money had not been largely blocked by the Republican Congress and Republican Phil Gramm 9/11 would have never happened.

Typical Republican, you give your boy a pass on the worst terrorist attack in history and then take credit for it when the terrorists let up because they just can't believe that Allah would allow them any more luck than for us to put someone as stupid as Bush in charge.

animeshpandeya · #40 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

For those interested in knowing more about the group behind this attack

Quote:

Terrorism in India and the Global Jihad
The attacks on multiple targets in downtown Mumbai in late November 2008 is only the latest in a long series of horrific terrorist operations in India. Terrorism in India is a complex phenomenon with numerous perpetrators. The most dangerous terrorist menace comes from groups with intimate connections to the global jihadist network centered around Usama bin Laden and al Qaeda and its allies in the Pakistani jihadist culture. While it is too soon to draw firm conclusions about responsibility for the attacks in Mumbai in November 2008, the odds are good that the terrorists and the masterminds behind their plot are connected into the global jihad.

India has been a target for al Qaeda and the global jihadist movement for over a decade. India has often been listed by bin Laden and his accomplice Ayman Zawahiri as a part of the ‘Crusader-Zionist-Hindu’ conspiracy against the Islamic world. The targets of the killers in Mumbai—Americans, Brits, Israelis and Indians--fit exactly into the profile al Qaeda and its partners vilify and plot against. Both bin Laden and Zawahiri have spoken about the “U.S-Jewish-Indian alliance against Muslims.”

The National Counter Terrorism Center noted earlier this year that India had the second largest number of casualties from terrorism in 2007, just behind Iraq. Now it almost certainly will have the highest casualty number in 2008. Many different groups use terror as a tool in India, including separatist movements in the north east, rural Maoists called Naxalites in the center and east of the country, extremists in the Muslim minority and extremists in the Hindu majority. Mahatma Gandhi was a victim of Hindu extremist violence himself. These indigenous groups are responsible for much of the low intensity violence in the country.

But the most dangerous terror menace comes from Kashmiri groups based in Pakistan with long and intimate connections to al Qaeda and bin Laden. The group which has been linked by initial Indian assessments of the Mumbai attack, Lashkar-e Tayiba (literally the army of the pure or righteous), was founded in Afghanistan and Pakistan in the late 1980s and early 1990s by a group of Kashmiri activists with the assistance of the Pakistani intelligence service, the Inter Services Intelligence Directorate or ISI. Usama bin Laden was an early supporter of the group and provided some of the initial funding for its start. The ISI was an enthusiastic supporter of the Kashmiri insurgency and wanted to use asymmetric warfare, i.e. terrorism to undermine Indian control of Kashmir.

LeT was banned in Pakistan in 2002 but continues to operate there under a number of cover names including Jamaat ud Dawah. Its self professed goal is to create an Islamic state in all of south and central Asia, not just Kashmir. Its operatives have worked closely with al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan and there are reports of LeT volunteers fighting in Iraq. Like al Qaeda it has raised funds in the Gulf states. The extent of its continuing relationship with the ISI is much debated. The Pakistani authorities claim none exists but the fact is that the organization has been tolerated in Pakistan despite the 2002 ban. It still has is leadership there and trains its fighters in both Pakistani Kashmir and the badlands along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

Since 9/11 several key al Qaeda operatives arrested in Pakistan have been found in safe houses run by LeT. The first major al Qaeda lieutenant caught after 9/11, Abu Zubayda, was apprehended in an LeT safe house in Faisalabad. Gary Schroen, who served as a CIA chief of station in Pakistan and led the first CIA team into Afghanistan after 9/11, has noted that “since 2002 whenever a raid has been conducted in Pakistan against al Qaeda, al Qaeda members are found being hosted by militant Pakistanis, primarily from the LeT group, supporters of the Kashmir insurgency.”

Also like al Qaeda, the LeT recruits actively among the Pakistani diaspora in the United Kingdom. Some 800,000 strong, many with Kashmiri roots, the British Pakistani community is an attractive target for many reasons not the least the fact that second and third generation members have British passports and can thus travel more easily in the West. LeT has been linked to numerous terrorist attacks in India including the massacre of dozens of Sikhs in Kashmir in March 2000 during President Clinton’s visit to India, bombings in New Delhi in 2005 and bombings in Varanasi and Mumbai in 2006. The Mumbai metro bombings on July 11, 2006 killed over two hundred.

Bin Laden was also a key figure in the creation of another Kashmiri group that works closely with global jihadists, the Jaish-e Muhammad (Army of Muhammad). In December 1999 Kashmiri militants hijacked an Indian commercial airliner, IA 814, from Kathmandu, Nepal, and flew it to Kandahar, Afghanistan, then the de facto capital of the Taliban’s Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. The hijackers demanded the release of several terrorists held in Indian jails, including Maulana Masoud Azhar, wanted for several previous terrorist atrocities. The hijackers were allegedly assisted by the ISI station in Nepal, they were received as heroes by the Taliban in Kandahar and the plot was reportedly planned by bin Laden. Usama hosted the victory dinner when India reluctantly gave in to the hijackers’ demands to save the 155 hostages.

Former Indian Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh, who flew to Kandahar to arrange the hostage release and negotiated with the Taliban, has labeled the IA 814 operation the “dress rehearsal” for 9/11 because it involved so many of the same characters behind 9/11. After the release of Azhar the ISI took him to Pakistan for a hero’s welcome and a fund raising tour through the country to help found a new group, JeM.

In December 2001 JeM, possibly with help from LeT, was behind an attack on the Indian parliament. This attack was designed to create a crisis between India and Pakistan by killing the senior echelon of the Indian government and legislators. It succeeded in provoking a tense standoff that would last over a year and during which more than a million Indian and Pakistani soldiers were deployed in forward positions along their border. By focusing Pakistan’s army on its eastern border with India the attack also left the western border with Afghanistan open to the retreating al Qaeda and Taliban leadership including bin Laden, Zawahiri and Mullah Omar who were fleeing the American Operation Enduring Freedom forces in Afghanistan. This was undoubtedly not a coincidence. Like LeT, Jaish has been outlawed in Pakistan but continues to operate under various cover names. The extent of its existing ties to the ISI is also much debated.

The Mumbai attacks displayed a level of sophisticated planning that marks another milestone in the global jihad. Multiple targets within an urban environment, trained and armed killers intent on operating in small teams or alone targeting Americans, Brits, Israelis as well as Indians, careful casing of the targets ahead of the attack and the use of small boats to get close in to the targets are signs of the continuing evolution of terrorist planners. Hotels have long been a favorite target of al Qaeda and its allies from the multiple hotel bombings in Amman by Al Qaeda’s Iraq franchise in November 2005 to the attack on the Serena Hotel in Kabul this January and the bombing of the Marriott hotel in Islamabad in September.

Many accounts of the incident say the terrorists arrived by sea from the Pakistani megacity port of Karachi. Karachi has long been a favorite hide out of the global jihad syndicate. Khalid Shaykh Mohammad, the tactical mastermind of 9/11, trained most of the Saudi hijackers in Karachi in a safe house. KSM also watched the collapse of the World Trade Center towers from an internet café in Karachi on the day of the attack. The December 2001 attack on the Indian parliament was planned and orchestrated from Karachi, perhaps with KSM’s involvement.

Much still needs to be learned about the Mumbai attacks. According to some Indian accounts, a captured terrorist has already confessed to being a member of LeT. Several Indian (B. Raman for example) and Pakistani (Ahmad Rashid) experts have suggested an al Qaeda hand in the attacks behind LeT. But we should be careful not to draw conclusions too early from an incomplete investigation. There is considerable confusion and contradiction in the press accounts of what transpired. The good news is that Pakistan has offered to assist in the investigation which could help prevent the very crisis between India and Pakistan that the plots masterminds may have wanted.

For the last several months India and Pakistan had been improving their bilateral relationship. Pakistan’s new President Asif ali Zardari had made several positive statements about his desire to ease tensions with India, including a pledge that Pakistan would adhere to a no first use of nuclear weapons doctrine, a major change in Islamabad’s position. Trade has been opened across the line of control in Kashmir, albeit in small amounts, for the first time in sixty years. Zardari has also promised to get control over the ISI and to stop its policy of both chasing and supporting terrorism in Pakistan. His ability to do so is still very much in doubt.

Al Qaeda and its allies like LeT and JeM would see this easing of tensions as a threat to their interests. They want conflict between India and Pakistan today just as they did in 2001. They thrive on the hatred the Indo-Pakistan conflict produces. If they are involved in the Mumbai attacks it would be in part to disrupt any chance at easing tensions in the subcontinent and perhaps also to divert Pakistan’s army away from the badlands along the border with Afghanistan to the border with India, again as in 2001.

For over a decade, India has been in the bull’s eye of both al Qaeda and the global jihadist syndicate that has its’ hide outs in Pakistan and Afghanistan. In spite of horrifying terrorist spectacles the Indian people and India’s democracy have not been terrified into defeat. The people of Mumbai in particular have risen time and again from terrorist attacks that would shake any other city to its core. The terrorists who attacked Mumbai have tried to break the morale of the city that is at the center of India’s economic renaissance and its cultural life. They have failed before and will fail again.

link

DammitBoy! · #41 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wisdom_Seeker

No i am just explaining to you that to every action there is a reaction. What is your argument now. .. they are attackin the indian way of life? or demoracy? or indias libery and freedom?

THINK!!.... they are from the same background and if you understand whats goin on in the region . .especially the Kashmir problem, ul understand what India's involvement is and how extremism rose from that.

WS.

So why did they target americans and white people? We have nothing to do with the situation in Kashmir.

If this was over kashmir, wouldn't they have targeted Indian government officials?

EagleSeven · #42 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by DammitBoy!

So why did they target americans and white people? We have nothing to do with the situation in Kashmir.

If this was over kashmir, wouldn't they have targeted Indian government officials?

Didn't you get the memo? Muslims never were and can never be racist....

Meritocrat · #43 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by metalted

of course it could, and has occured. Won't even need boats. All you need to do is get a gun and start shooting up shopping mall. happens often enough, look at those two muslim snipers did for a couple of days.

Sheeple stopped caring about that when it was discovered that they're Black.

Meritocrat · #44 (**permalink**) 12-01-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by chassisman

Attack is so very easy , and there are ways that they can inflict casualties far beyond India , or even 911, without having to go meet Allah. That is why I can't understand how any nation , or coalition of nations can expect to win a war on terror with the kidd gloves on. Fight terror, don't waterboard. Capture terrorists or suspected terrorist, but don't imprison them "unjustly". If we are going to win this war, lets fight them with the same tactics.....no fucking rules, baby.
Get ready for islamic extremism, they are not done with us by any means, and as each day passes without another attack on American soil, the more complacent America grows, worrying over personal wealth issues.
I am quite confident Obama will get his turn in the terrorism barrel. That, my friends, will be when we find out what kind of president we have.
Will he work the root and tell Pakistan we're coming for them,. like it or not? Until someone has the cods to do just that, there will be a steady stream of them.
Oh yeah.........and accept collateral damage and deal with the negative repercussions of such.

Translation: kill the woman you're raping if she dare resists.

Shame on you.