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War & Peace A forum to discuss the current conflict with Iraq, North Korea, and the war on terrorism, as well as military/defense policy in general.

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  #226 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2009
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Re: HRW condemns Hamas torture and murder of political rivals

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Originally Posted by Chocobot View Post
Fair enough, however im only dealing with your conception that another will fill the gap - within that concept, the US is indeed trapped, though it can reduce such aid as it gives and increase pressure in other ways probably too I suppose.

But the actual reality in any case is that Isreal would not rather have China or Russia as allies funding them because they have nothing like the political clout and involvement with these as they do with the US. There is simply no comparison.
Right. Neither China nor Russia have the political clout that the USA has with Israel because they don't hold these purse strings.
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  #227 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2009
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Re: HRW condemns Hamas torture and murder of political rivals

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Originally Posted by Si modo View Post
Right. Neither China nor Russia have the political clout that the USA has with Israel because they don't hold these purse strings.
No its simply because Isreal has no Jewish lobby to call upon in these countries in the event things arent going their way.
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  #228 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2009
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Re: HRW condemns Hamas torture and murder of political rivals

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Originally Posted by Chocobot View Post
No its simply because Isreal has no Jewish lobby to call upon in these countries in the event things arent going their way.
You do so hate that Jewish lobby.

No, Chocobot: the reason China and Russia don't have the political clout with Israel that we do is because they don't currently hold the purse strings to that chunk of aid to Israel.
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  #229 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2009
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Re: HRW condemns Hamas torture and murder of political rivals

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Originally Posted by Si modo View Post
You do so hate that Jewish lobby.

No, Chocobot: the reason China and Russia don't have the political clout with Israel that we do is because they don't currently hold the purse strings to that chunk of aid to Israel.
No Si Modo, the clout goes both ways. Isreal has extensive ties to US politics and the US gives Isreal billions in aid and preferential military arrangements.

Of course, its possible that this could be swapped for China or Russia but firstly, they do not see things in quite the same way the US does, they do not have a lobby making sure they see the ME in a particular way nor would isreal wish to be beholden to a power it cannot hope to influence as it can do so now.

Moreover, when you ask yourself the simple question of what it would gain China or Russia to fund Isreal you can see its an unlikely scenario.
The one thing in favour of your argument that ties can be easily swapped is that neither china nor russia give priority to 'human rights' stuff. But thats about it.

Real change will come either when the changing demographics makes presence felt or when US politics finds the courage to face down AIPAC and such and pressure the isrealis to really stop building this time and recognise the two state solution - as it is Abbas and the PA have been playing nice for some time with no result.
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Last edited by Chocobot; 05-03-2009 at 09:08 AM.
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  #230 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2009
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Re: HRW condemns Hamas torture and murder of political rivals

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Originally Posted by Chocobot View Post
No Si Modo, the clout goes both ways....
As it would with anyone giving the amounts of money we give.

Personally, I prefer our having that sort of influence over a nation that says it has nuclear weapons (and Carter says so, too ) than China or Russia, for example.

For those who would prefer another nation having that sort of influence, I disagree with them, but sometimes it pays to consider the alternates. It makes any personal angst about current situations less troublesome.
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  #231 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2009
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Re: HRW condemns Hamas torture and murder of political rivals

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Originally Posted by Si modo View Post
As it would with anyone giving the amounts of money we give.

Personally, I prefer our having that sort of influence over a nation that says it has nuclear weapons (and Carter says so, too ) than China or Russia, for example.

For those who would prefer another nation having that sort of influence, I disagree with them, but sometimes it pays to consider the alternates. It makes any personal angst about current situations less troublesome.


You are so paranoid about nuclear exchanges/ terrorism etc.
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  #232 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2009
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Re: HRW condemns Hamas torture and murder of political rivals

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You are so paranoid about nuclear exchanges/ terrorism etc.
How adorable of you - projecting emotions onto me. But, it is true that I understand that non-proliferation is a sound concept.
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  #233 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2009
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Re: HRW condemns Hamas torture and murder of political rivals

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Originally Posted by Si modo View Post
How adorable of you - projecting emotions onto me. But, it is true that I understand that non-proliferation is a sound concept.


I thought we could share the emotional projections. It brings us closer dont you think?
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