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War & Peace A forum to discuss the current conflict with Iraq, North Korea, and the war on terrorism, as well as military/defense policy in general.

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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2009
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: May 2009
Location: Pacific Northwest
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Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishjoel View Post
It's easy to call for reform and all that kind of garbage when you're not living there and subjected to rockets ad suicide bombers all the time. At a certain point you just start to not care.

The illegal settlements and confiscation of Arab land started in 1947.
The rockets did not start until the 1987 Intefada.
Israel had plenty of time to comply with international law, and avoid the rocket and suidice attacks.
Israel can not claim innocence at this point.
The guilt is clearly on Israel.
Look at a map of the 1948 UN partition.
Jerusalem is not even close to the Israeli side of the divison.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2009
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: May 2009
Location: Pacific Northwest
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Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
Jordan gave it up. Someones got to do something productive with it.

Jordan gave it up because it was never part of Jordan.
But the West Bank where the settlements are, has been part of Palestine since long before the UN partition in 1948 even.
But 1948 clearly established the fact the West Bank was not at all legally open to Israeli settlements.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2009
Secretary of Defense

 
Member Since: Apr 2006
Location: Galway, Ireland
Posts: 2,098
Blog Entries: 8

   
Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Israel invaded with financial backing from US.
Palestine is defending with the backing of Syria and Iran.

Israel is killing 7 people to one loss. This ratio continues to women and children.
Israel is in violation of International Law.


In 2003 Iran has offered to :
  1. Allow Inspectors to its Nuclear Program(which they claim as peaceful).
  2. Stop aiding Hamas and Hezbollah
  3. Support the Saudi proposal of a two state solution

They asked in return
  1. That Iran be taken of the axis of evil. (seems reasonable)
  2. Promise not to invade Iran (also seems fair)
  3. Israel retreat to 1967 boarders (this was to be set with a timeframe, I presume land swaps would be OK)
In 2003, U.S. Spurned Iran's Offer of Dialogue

With Irans help the US could secure the region. So the way I see it is the US is creating its own problems with its refusal to deal with Israel..
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2009
President

 
Member Since: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 18,069

United_States     Russian

Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroom View Post
I find it funny that many of the same people who are saying we need to butt out of Iran's affairs....

Are the same ones that insist we butt into Israel's affairs.

But why should I expect consistancy from them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperator View Post
we give them money.
Bingo. If you want consistency, here it is: stop giving Israel aid. If they want to buy weapons from us, let them buy them from a private seller at the market rate. Let's see how long they last when they don't have a warm body to leech off of.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2009
President

 
Member Since: Jul 2005
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Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyTed View Post
Israel invaded with financial backing from US.
Palestine is defending with the backing of Syria and Iran.

Israel is killing 7 people to one loss. This ratio continues to women and children.
Israel is in violation of International Law.


In 2003 Iran has offered to :
  1. Allow Inspectors to its Nuclear Program(which they claim as peaceful).
  2. Stop aiding Hamas and Hezbollah
  3. Support the Saudi proposal of a two state solution

They asked in return
  1. That Iran be taken of the axis of evil. (seems reasonable)
  2. Promise not to invade Iran (also seems fair)
  3. Israel retreat to 1967 boarders (this was to be set with a timeframe, I presume land swaps would be OK)
In 2003, U.S. Spurned Iran's Offer of Dialogue

With Irans help the US could secure the region. So the way I see it is the US is creating its own problems with its refusal to deal with Israel..
Actually, with its refusal to stop aiding Israel for free, while refusing to ask for anything in return.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2009
Mushroom's Avatar
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Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
The difference is obvious.
The settlements are on Palestinian territory, not Israeli territory, so are not Israel's affair.
They are violation of international law, and an embarrassement to the US and the UN, for not totally dismantling them long ago.
This is the type of thing I love reading. In other words, we should invade Israel, because they are doing or not doing things the way you want them to?

Hmmmm, pot calling the kettle black. It is not that a lot of the people out here are against US intervention, or even strong-arm tactics. They just think they should be done against our allies instead of our enemies.

Of course, there is the simple fact that a lot of these areas are in places that Palestine has been launching rocket attacks into Israel. And as far as I am concerned, Palestine is getting what it deserves.

The moment they stop launching attacks into their neighboring nation, I am more then willing to step up and force the issue with Israel. But the rocket attacks keep comming.

Palestine only exists as a nation because Israel has let it exist. And one of the promises made when it was created was that the incessant attacks on Israel would stop. But that has not been the case. And I for one am getting tired of a group that claim to want peace, but continue to commit war crimes and attack their neighbor.

While at the same time pretending to be the victim. Why can't they listen to John Lennon, and "Give peace chance"?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2009
Chocobot's Avatar
Secretary of State

 
Member Since: Jun 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 5,049

   
Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroom View Post
This is the type of thing I love reading. In other words, we should invade Israel, because they are doing or not doing things the way you want them to?

Hmmmm, pot calling the kettle black. It is not that a lot of the people out here are against US intervention, or even strong-arm tactics. They just think they should be done against our allies instead of our enemies.

Of course, there is the simple fact that a lot of these areas are in places that Palestine has been launching rocket attacks into Israel. And as far as I am concerned, Palestine is getting what it deserves.

The moment they stop launching attacks into their neighboring nation, I am more then willing to step up and force the issue with Israel. But the rocket attacks keep comming.

Palestine only exists as a nation because Israel has let it exist. And one of the promises made when it was created was that the incessant attacks on Israel would stop. But that has not been the case. And I for one am getting tired of a group that claim to want peace, but continue to commit war crimes and attack their neighbor.

While at the same time pretending to be the victim. Why can't they listen to John Lennon, and "Give peace chance"?
What are you talking about? There are no rocket attacks from the west bank and havent been for years.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2009
Imperator's Avatar
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Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic1 View Post
I suppose you get no argument with that statement. However Israel is an invader and occupier in violation of international law. Take away our money and the weapons we furnish and outlaw the use of atomic weapons and let them settle their affair with their enemies. "winner take all". As long as there's need oil will be available for the west. (human nature at work).
I have no problem with that, as long as the opposition has their sppt. pulled too.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2009
Mushroom's Avatar
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Location: Al-Audib, Qatar
Posts: 426
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Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocobot View Post
What are you talking about? There are no rocket attacks from the west bank and havent been for years.
Palestinians claim rocket fired from West Bank

Of course there is this cautionary tale:

Obama's resolve on Mideast facing a history of blunt reality - Los Angeles Times
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2009
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: May 2009
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 1,014

   
Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroom View Post
This is the type of thing I love reading. In other words, we should invade Israel, because they are doing or not doing things the way you want them to?

Hmmmm, pot calling the kettle black. It is not that a lot of the people out here are against US intervention, or even strong-arm tactics. They just think they should be done against our allies instead of our enemies.

Of course, there is the simple fact that a lot of these areas are in places that Palestine has been launching rocket attacks into Israel. And as far as I am concerned, Palestine is getting what it deserves.

The moment they stop launching attacks into their neighboring nation, I am more then willing to step up and force the issue with Israel. But the rocket attacks keep comming.

Palestine only exists as a nation because Israel has let it exist. And one of the promises made when it was created was that the incessant attacks on Israel would stop. But that has not been the case. And I for one am getting tired of a group that claim to want peace, but continue to commit war crimes and attack their neighbor.

While at the same time pretending to be the victim. Why can't they listen to John Lennon, and "Give peace chance"?


What you posted makes no sense.
What is embarrassing to the US is that in effect Israel is making the US an accomplice when it commits crimes like this.

And you can't "give peace a chance" when Israel is illegally occupying most of the land and homes owned by the Arabs.
They have no choice but to fight back any way they can, because Israel has refused all legal appeal for half a century now.
It is Israel that is totally in the wrong, and the rockets are justified.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2009
Mushroom's Avatar
Lieutenant Governor

 
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Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
And you can't "give peace a chance" when Israel is illegally occupying most of the land and homes owned by the Arabs.
They have no choice but to fight back any way they can, because Israel has refused all legal appeal for half a century now.
It is Israel that is totally in the wrong, and the rockets are justified.
To the Radicals, Israel has no right to even exist, and they do not recognize Israel. So to them, their being there in the first place is a crime.

And how can any reasonable person actually advocate the attacks on women and children? Attacking the people of Israel is actually justified?

And I guess you believe the US deserved 9/11, and that the people of Iran deserve to be slaughtered because they are speaking up against their leaders.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2009
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: May 2009
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 1,014

   
Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroom View Post
To the Radicals, Israel has no right to even exist, and they do not recognize Israel. So to them, their being there in the first place is a crime.

And how can any reasonable person actually advocate the attacks on women and children? Attacking the people of Israel is actually justified?

And I guess you believe the US deserved 9/11, and that the people of Iran deserve to be slaughtered because they are speaking up against their leaders.

And why does Israel have any right to exist?
The land Israel is built on was occupied by millions of Arabs, who were killed or driven off.
How is that not a crime?

You are justified in attacking women and children when they impose a threat to the continuation of your entire culture, they are illegally and knowingly occupying what is yours, and no other alternative is available.

Yes the US probably deserved the 9/11 attack, because of crimes we committed; but the attack on civilians was not necessary, so was not justified.

But Iran has done nothing wrong, so no attack on Iran would be justified.
Attacking those speaking out is never justified.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2009
mabus's Avatar
Secretary of Defense
typical "Old-European"

 
Member Since: Oct 2002
Location: fawning germany
Posts: 3,236

Germany     United_States

Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

, "settlements". These are fucking colonies. Israelis aren't settling in Palestine, they are colonizing their new Lebensraum.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2009
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
Member Since: May 2009
Location: Pacific Northwest
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Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

In 1948, Jews were less then a third of the population, but were given statehood over half the land.
But the actual real estate was 95% owned by Arabs.
So why it is that now Israel is occupying over two thirds of the land, and so many homes have been illegally confiscated, that Jews now own over 50% of the real estate?

It is not hard to see what the projection is.
The Jews instead to take all of Palestine, and evict all the Arabs eventually.
They are already all walled off into concentration camps.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2009
Citizen

 
Member Since: Jul 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 8

   
Re: 2000-member American rabbi group backs Obama on complete settlement freeze

Its nice to read about this. Too often are moderates calling for a two state solution or critisizing the massacre in Gaza equated with anti-semites.
The issue of palestine has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with the 4.5 million palestininan refugees, half of which are too poor to feed themselves and rely on UN food aid.
Israel will only perpetuate terrorism through its monetary support to hamas ( Hamas is a Creation of Mossad), and throught the massacres and humiliation imposed upon palestinian civilians.
In my opinion Israel is more of a regional threat than the palestinians have ever been. Its clear that the Israeli govt has no regard for international law, as is demonstrated with its use of white phosphorous in gaza or the collective punishment it perpetuates which is specificly banned by the UN charter.
And shame of the US government for paying for the entire quagmire. Then again, we've never had any qualms about supporting terrorism. Just ask Iranians in 1953, or Chileans in 1973, the the hundred thousand killed in East Timor.
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