From your own link ;

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Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Guess who?

OK. So Israel doesn't have a right to exist, rocket attacks against civilians are justified. And "the US probably deserved the 9/11 attack".

Thanks for explaining your point of view. Now we can all see what your idea of justice looks like.

I loved how he ended up justifying the attacks of 9/11 and then condemning them in the same sentence. That was great!



And for the record, since this thread is supposedly about Jews who support removing settlements, there are many Jews (Rabbis or just your average Israelis like me) who are for removing most or all the settlements. A few years ago we saw all the settlements from Gaza removed by Israel, and several settlements in the West Bank as well. But have we seen any gestures from the Palestinian side after that? No, we just got more rockets and more demands. So forgive us if Israel is a little cautious about making further withdrawals.

We are going to remove some settlements, but only in keeping with our security concerns. We're not going to just remove all the settlements at once. We’re going to take it slow to see whether at any point the Palestinians do decide to start moving forward perhaps reciprocating with a few peaceful gestures of their own. We’re willing to move forward with the peace process if they’re willing to do their part. But incitement to violence, rocket attacks and refusal to compromise, really aren’t conducive to peace.

To put it simply, it takes two to tango. And Israel has shown in the past that when we have a real partner on the other side peace is possible.

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With partners like these peace was possible!

You loved it so much you felt you really had to miss out the bit that said; "but the attack on civilians was not necessary, so was not justified."

Why miss out that bit?



Putting aside for a moment what actually happened when you withdrew from Gaza, do you actually think that settlements keep you safe? If not then why dont you just withdraw? Unless you really want the land of course.

Fair enough, take it slow. But so far its just been expansion in the West Bank. So what else is one meant to think? Moreover, how can one compromise with expansion?

B'Tselem - Land Expropriation and Settlements - Statistics

See above. It seems from Isrealis themselves that this is not so.

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Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Guess who?

The above post also reveals a sense of justice but from a different perspective

What (all things considered) is the fact a third party drew the lines that designating Israeli borders and the Palestinian Arabs within those borders having lived there for hundreds of years were systematically displaced, relegated to third class citizens, and properties seized.

What ensued was a natural counter response from both sides but as it developed it certainly did not and does not resemble "justice". It is a reversal of rolls (with our help) of David and Goliath in respect to outcome.

Peace IMO will come only when Israel recognizes its own related sins in the "day of atonement" and moves on from there.

I didn't leave out that bit. I quoted his statement in its entirety just above that. I then highlighted the part I found most interesting.

I found it amusing how he justifies the attacks, and then in the next breath says that it wasn't necessary so it wasn't justified. Saying that the US deserved the attacks of 9/11 and then just saying that it was not necessary to kill civilians so it's not justified is just double talk. That's some pretty serious verbal acrobatics. It's like saying that you probably deserve to be blown up, or burned alive and reduced to ashes, but it's not necessary so it wouldn't be justified. It's bullshit.

The first part of his sentence clearly states that he thinks the US probably deserved the 9/11 attacks, then he simply qualifies that by saying that killing civilians was not necessary. Your defense of his statement is lame.


Be'tselem doesn't represent all Israelis. It represents a certain point of view and it has a certain agenda. And yes, some Israelis think that the government should remove all settlements right now. Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

But clearly you ignore the fact that Israel withdrew from Gaza, removing all the settlements there, and also several West Bank settlements. You just want to put that fact aside for the moment and the fact that it was answered with thousands of rockets on Israeli towns and villages. You just want to concentrate on accusations that I really just want the land.

You grab on to the existing settlements as an excuse not to recognize Israel's legitimate security concerns, and in order to avoid discussing what Palestinians need to do for peace. And unfortunately that is what the Palestinians are doing as well.

They refuse to take any steps toward peace themselves, or make any kind of gesture or compromise, saying that they still haven't received everything they demanded.

Well, most negotiations aren't handled by one side just giving everything to the other side up front and agreeing to all their demands just to see whether the other side is even willing to talk to them.

I have a question for you as well. What sort of peace deal would you suggest? What would you deem a just peace between Israel and Palestine?

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With partners like these peace was possible!

Yes, and there was the other link.

Meanwhile, Iran's Islamist allies, Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon,have boosted their arsenals with logistical help from Syria and taken on Israel's army.

Goaded to limit settlement growth and negotiate with the Palestinians, Sharon rebuffed the George W. Bush administration but withdrew soldiers and settlers unilaterally from Gaza.

Since the pull-out from the Gaza Strip, tens of thousands of rockets have been fired from there into Israel. Do you think things would be any different if they pulled out of the West Bank?

Take one in context with the other. 1 against thousands.

Indeed, you did quote it. Yet you didnt address it.

You find it amusing? Ok. I find it amusing you cant parse the meaning from the sentence. Or rather you can, but you dont want to.

His point was, the US deserved to take a hit. However, whereas attacking its military would be necessary, as they are the wielders of force in the US, attacking its civilians, who are not, is not necessary - therefore any justification on grounds retaliatory necessity against civilians is not necessary.

Its not doubletalk, because he's not advocating civilian suffering.



Indeed, and neither do you.

I dont ignore Isreals withdrawal, I just dont want to get into an argument about exactly happened after the IDF evacuated the Gaza settlements. I acknowledge Isreal's withdrawal. I also acknowledge that Isreal's withdrawal did not stop its attacks on Gaza, nor did the withdrawal of some west bank settlements prevent the growth of the others.

I can just as easily say that you grab on to the occasional attacks on Isreal and isrealis as an excuse not to recognize legitimate life concerns of West Bank and Gaza residents in order to avoid discussing what the Isrealis need to do for peace.
Unfortunately thats what your PM is doing as well.

Lets just see if you guys can even manage to share Jerusalem first.

__________________
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Guess who?

Well thank you for admitting that the West Bank attacks are rare.

Indeed, since the Gaza pullout tens of thousands of rockets, shells and bullets have been fired from Isreal into there.

One context with another? PLease explain.

__________________
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Guess who?

Israel holds the West Bank. They ensure the peace, and there are no rocket attacks into Israel.

Israel turned over the Gaza Strip. Since then, it has been a base for countless attacks into Israel.

This is a clear justification for continued occupancy.

Put it in another context, what would your response be if thugs in Mexico started to fire rockets from Juarez into El Paso? Sure, El Paso was once part of Mexico at one time. Do you turn over El Paso? Do you launch punitive attacks into Juarez? Do you sit back and say "Those damed Americans deserve whatever they get"?

And if the military responds with force, do you condemn them? The people killed in El Paso, are they guilty of some crime deserving of death just because they live in El Paso?

And it could just as easily be Tiajuana and San Diego, or Dickey Maine and Canada.

One of the promises made when the West Bank was turned over was that the violence would stop. And in all the years since then, I have not heard of one incident where Israel attacked unprovoked.

I don't have much sympathy for the Palestinians. Probably because they continue to use fear and death as a tactic to try and get what they want. And they do not negotiate in good faith. They might get more sympathy if they follow much more successful "resistance leaders", like Dr. King and Ghandi.

But like children, they simply lash out at something that angers them. And wonder why so many people consider them thugs and barbarians.

What you said makes no sense.

Clearly I said that the 9/11 attackes were not justified because there was no need to attack civilians.

And how it reducing settlements that Israel doesn't want and can't defend, like in Gaza, making any sort of gesture at all.
It is not like returning settlements in Gaza was some sort of gift, because the settlements should never have been there at all.
Just returning them is not enough.
There should be a penalty for ever having taken them at all.
And there are still all the other settlements and land illegally confiscated in the occupied territories as well as within Israel.

What you ask is like expecting a person to say thank you for returning the wallet they stole, while they still have your stolen car and home.

There can be no compromise on the withdraw from all the settlements and a return to the 1967 borders, because that is already far too much of a compromise.
Israel should not have any part of Jerusalem at all if one went back to the legal borders, which were established in 1948.

Nonsense,
When a thief steals from you, force is deserved in order to get it back.
However, only the force necessary is deserved, it is not justified to use excessive force.

And the US has screwed up and done illegal things, like over throwing the Iranian democracy in 1953, Desert Storm, the invasion of Iraq, invading Iraq, bombarding Beirut, etc. So the use of force is deserved, in order to protect from additional abuse, but 9/11 was excessive because it targeted innocent civilians.


And the removal of settlements is not up to anyone's opinion.
It is required by international law.
It is also immoral to maintain the illegal possession of the land of others.

It is totally unreasonable to expect the Palestinians to make any move towards peace, when Israel still is illegally occupying Arab homes.
Anyone doing that is a criminal, and should not expect any peace.

Justice demands the return of all illegal settlements, and either the right of return or compensation for confiscated land within Israel.

So once again you say that 9/11 was deserved, but the killing of civilians was not 'necessary'.

Was the attack on the Pentagon okay in your opinion?

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With partners like these peace was possible!

Was it a military establishment? Yes.

The plane used was full of civilians however. Thus it was not the target but the means that was wrong.

__________________
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Guess who?

Actually the lack of intifada ensures peace in the West Bank, as Fatah under Abbas wills it.

Isreal withdrew from the Sinai, and did not fire into it, or surround it - thus peace.

Jeez you really do support land theft dont you?

What you do is, find out what the Mexicans are firing for. You may defend yourself, but a continued policy of assassination is hardly likely to win over the enemy.

Youre really not thinking much about this thing, at all.

Isreal started an assassination campaign, sent shells on to picniking families on the gaza beach and continued to build and expand settlements. I've not heard of one instance where the Palestinians have attacked unprovoked.

I don't have much sympathy for the Isrealis. Probably because they continue to use fear, death and construction of settlements, water confiscation, land confiscation as a tactic to try and get what they want. And they do not negotiate in good faith. They might get more sympathy if they follow much more successful "peace leaders", like Dr. King and Ghandi.

But like children, they simply lash out at something that angers them. And wonder why so many people consider them thugs and barbarians.

What do you think of this statement? Where am I going wrong?

__________________
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Guess who?

You're certainly not shy about constructing a "straw man." Of course, it's always easier to create an artificial situation in which you are "right" than it is to deal with reality.

I'm glad that you mentioned children, because the Arabs are now raising a fourth generation of children in those crowded, incredibly filthy "refugee camps." These children will look across the border at clean, neat, prosperous farmland and be told, "all this would have been yours." Is it any wonder that they will hate the Israelis? That is the reality you must deal with.