This thread is not about Hiroshima, and I've not addressed it either way because it is off-topic.

Start a new thread if you like, but if you keep trying to derail this thread with Hiroshima, you're going to get points.

Clear?

Ok fair enough, you win. Lets leave out Hiroshima.

Do you condemn large scale attacks on civilian populations?

__________________
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Guess who?

I have on many occasions.

Indeed. With exceptions.

Lemme guess, American exceptions?

Anyway moving on from such inconsistencies, as I said I think you miss the point that while civilians are mostly innocent, nations as a whole, and especially the military that enforces their policies, remain legit targets - as the US and everyone else has demonstrated they agree with for decades and decades.

__________________
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Guess who?

You're welcome to your fantasies about what I've said. They truly don't interest
me, though.

Anyway moving on from such inconsistencies, as I said I think you miss the point that while civilians are mostly innocent, nations as a whole, and especially the military that enforces their policies, remain legit targets - as the US and everyone else has demonstrated they agree with for decades and decades.

__________________
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Guess who?

Chocobot makes a rare and valid point. Hiroshima and Nagasaki we cities that we dropped the a-bomb on. The sole purpose of which was to scare Japan into submission. I will say that I don't think I've seen Israel do anything as extreme as that yet. So does that make them better than us in that regard? Anyways, I think Israel has shown amazing restraint in not committing to even more force than they've done so far, considering what they've been subjected to in their recent history.

Regardless, sometimes if you want to make an omelette you have to break a few eggs.

__________________
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
- George Bernard Shaw

Thank you for this comment.

However, to say that Isreal has shown amazing restraint is laughable, unless of course you happen to think that Isreal would have been justified in restarting the full scale ethnic cleansing policy that sputtered to a halt in late 1948 and only continues today in the slower form of land confiscations and settlement.

I often feel that modern Zionists and their American right wing friends are only a step away from acting just like the Serbs, the Croats and occasionally the Bosnians did in the former Yugoslavia - invade an area, take over each house, kick out the inhabitants with a few rapes, executions thrown in to make sure no one comes back.

The only thing that stops you guys is the fear that although you do really want to be evil you could no longer be thought of as anything but evil, at which point, politically, your goose would be cooked and your cause lost due to marginalisation of Isreal and their backers in the US.

__________________
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Guess who?

That is silly.
Should we not have landed in Normandy in WWII because there would be some innocent civilians killed?

Should we not have carpet bombed civilians in Hamburg, Berlin, etc., in order to reduce the German war production?

You want an even more recent example?
How about deliberatly targeting a Taliban funeral, where there was bound to be mostly innocent civilians?

You don't deliberately target civilians unless you have no other choice, but when it becomes necessary, you do what you have to.
And the lack of other choices is the fault of Israel, not the Arabs.
The Arabs have never been the source of the conflict, and have never been the guilty party.
It is Israel that has always been in violation of the treaties, laws, and UN resolutions.

Simple test.
Is Israel legally in Jerusalem or illegaly in violation of the Treaty of San Remo, the Balfour Declaration, the Churchill Whitepaper, the 1948 Un Resolution creating Israel, and all following UN resolutions on the subject?

Then why is it we kill so many civilians, such as in Iraq and Afghanistan, when we don't have to?
Certainly no one can claim that killing these civilians made the US any safer.

When a country does something evil and illegal, how else are you going to get them to stop unless you punish the civilian population?
When a country commits crimes, then the whole population "deserves" the punishment that is required.

We don't need to bring up Hiroshima, or even Dresden, to show that the US has always targeted civilians when it helps.

There are plenty of examples more recent, such as napalming villages in Vietnam, the blockade of food to Iraq, "Shock and Awe", the revenge against Fallujah, waterboarding, etc.

The US has never been shy about deliberately targeting civilians.

But has Israel ever shown such restraint?
Have you read of the massace at Deir Yassin?

Deir Yassin massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There can be no question such massacres not only happened, but they were common, and why millions of Arabs were forced to flee into refugee camps.
From which the right of return is required by international law.

It is not hard to show that Israel has always had the policy of killing 10 Arabs for every 1 Israeli death. Not to mention the policy of "break bones", etc.
We have all seen the videos of Israel soldiers delberately breaking legs an arms.

Yes, I believe they have shown restraint. They have had their populous subjected to multiple attempts of mass genocide. They have had their populous subjected to suicide bombers. They have had their populous subjected to thousands of rockets. You do realize that the jews were being attacked and killed even before the jewish state was established, right? They were a very paranoid group of people and rightfully so. Look at what they had fled from in Germany and Russia. I'm not trying to justify everything Israel has done, but it's very easy to cast stones when you live in comfort.

Both sides have blood on their hands.

__________________
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
- George Bernard Shaw

Why do you believe they have shown restraint?

They have never experienced any major attack from Arabs, but from Europeans during WWII.
Otherwise they would not have left Europe for the Mideast.

As for being attacked before 1948, illegal Zionist immigrants were well armed and killing unarmed Arabs since 1920.
And you can't blame the Arabs for being upset, since Zionists were coming in far greater numbers than law allowed for, and they were not observing local land use laws and customs.
They were even claiming land already owned by others.
They totally screwed up in their approach to making a peaceful colony in the Mideast.
I think they get the vast majority of the blame.
There are lots of other places they could have gone instead, including Spain, or even staying in Germany or Poland, which were totally safe after the war was over.

It was also a huge military-industrial complex. It was also the site of a slave camp. And one of the largest Officer School in the country.

Hiroshima Before the Bombing

Every military base has a large city "chock full of civilians". The Allied powers simply responded in kind when Germany-Japan turned it's attacks towards civilians in doing the same in return.

And look at the history of air attacks. There are numerous attacks that killed more then those 2 did.

And it is hard to have any sympathy, after events like Nanking.

Of course we could have not bombed them, and instead launched Operations Olympic and Coronet. Then we would have had 4-8 million dead, instead of less then 200,000.