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War & Peace A forum to discuss the current conflict with Iraq, North Korea, and the war on terrorism, as well as military/defense policy in general.

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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

Here's an article from Stratfor on Obama's current indecision. The author raised a good point - a lack of action is not necessarily a sign of lack of strategy. I can't agree with all of his perspective, but Friedman generally brings a nice historical context to the situation and emphasizes the realities of national power.

Quote:
Making sense of U.S. President Barack Obama's strategy at this moment is difficult. Not only is it a work in progress, but the pending decisions he has to make -- on Iran, Afghanistan and Russia -- tend to obscure underlying strategy. It is easy to confuse inaction with a lack of strategy. Of course, there may well be a lack of strategic thinking, but that does not mean there is a lack of strategy.

Strategy, as we have argued, is less a matter of choice than a matter of reality imposing itself on presidents. Former U.S. President George W. Bush, for example, rarely had a chance to make strategy. He was caught in a whirlwind after only nine months in office and spent the rest of his presidency responding to events, making choices from a menu of very bad options. Similarly, Obama came into office with a preset menu of limited choices. He seems to be fighting to create new choices, not liking what is on the menu. He may succeed. But it is important to understand the overwhelming forces that shape his choices and to understand the degree to which whatever he chooses is embedded in U.S. grand strategy, a strategy imposed by geopolitical reality.

Empires and Grand Strategy
American grand strategy, as we have argued, is essentially that of the British Empire, save at a global rather than a regional level. The British sought to protect their national security by encouraging Continental powers to engage in land-based conflict, thereby reducing resources available for building a navy. That guaranteed that Britain's core interest, the security of the homeland and sea-lane control, remained intact. Achieving this made the United Kingdom an economic power in the 19th century by sparing it the destruction of war and allowing it to control the patterns of international maritime trade.

On occasion, when the balance of power in Europe tilted toward one side or another, Britain intervened on the Continent with political influence where possible, direct aid when necessary or -- when all else failed -- the smallest possible direct military intervention. The United Kingdom's preferred strategy consisted of imposing a blockade -- e.g., economic sanctions -- allowing it to cause pain without incurring costs.

At the same time that it pursued this European policy, London was building a global empire. Here again, the British employed a balance-of-power strategy. In looking at the history of India or Africa during the 19th century, there is a consistent pattern of the United Kingdom forming alliances with factions, whether religious or ethnic groups, to create opportunities for domination. In the end, this was not substantially different from ancient Rome's grand strategy. Rome also ruled indirectly through much of its empire, controlling Mediterranean sea-lanes, but allying with local forces to govern; observing Roman strategy in Egypt is quite instructive in this regard.

Empires are not created by someone deciding one day to build one, or more precisely, lasting empires are not. They emerge over time through a series of decisions having nothing to do with empire building, and frequently at the hands of people far more concerned with domestic issues than foreign policy. Paradoxically, leaders who consciously set out to build empires usually fail. Hitler is a prime example. His failure was that rather than ally with forces in the Soviet Union, he wished to govern directly, something that flowed from his ambitions for direct rule. Particularly at the beginning, the Roman and British empires were far less ambitious and far less conscious of where they were headed. They were primarily taking care of domestic affairs. They became involved in foreign policy as needed, following a strategy of controlling the seas while maintaining substantial ground forces able to prevail anywhere -- but not everywhere at once -- and a powerful alliance system based on supporting the ambitions of local powers against other local powers.

On the whole, the United States has no interest in empire, and indeed is averse to imperial adventures. Those who might have had explicit inclinations in this direction are mostly out of government, crushed by experience in Iraq. Iraq came in two parts. In the first part, from 2003 to 2007, the U.S. vision was one of direct rule relying on American sea-lane control and overwhelming Iraq with well-supplied American troops.

The results were unsatisfactory. The United States found itself arrayed against all Iraqi factions and wound up in a multipart war in which its forces were merely one faction arrayed against others. The Petraeus strategy to escape this trap was less an innovation in counterinsurgency than a classic British-Roman approach. Rather than attempting direct control of Iraq, Petraeus sought to manipulate the internal balance of power, aligning with Sunni forces against Shiite forces, i.e., allying with the weaker party at that moment against the stronger. The strategy did not yield the outcome that some Bush strategists dreamed of, but it might (with an emphasis on might) yield a useful outcome: a precariously balanced Iraq dependent on the United States to preserve its internal balance of power and national sovereignty against Iran.

Many Americans, perhaps even most, regret the U.S. intervention in Iraq. And there are many, again perhaps most, who view broader U.S. entanglement in the world as harmful to American interests. Similar views were expressed by Roman republicans and English nationalists who felt that protecting the homeland by controlling the sea was the best policy, while letting the rest of the world go its own way. But the Romans and the British lost that option when they achieved the key to their own national security: enough power to protect the homeland. Outsiders inevitably came to see that power as offensive, even though originally its possessors intended it as defensive. Indeed, intent aside, the capability for offensive power was there. So frequently, Rome and Britain threatened the interests of foreign powers simply by being there. Inevitably, both Rome and Britain became the targets of Hannibals and Napoleons, and they were both drawn into the world regardless of their original desires. In short, enough power to be secure is enough power to threaten others. Therefore, that perfect moment of national security always turns offensive, as the power to protect the homeland threatens the security of other countries.

A Question of Size
There are Obama supporters and opponents who also dream of the perfect balance: security for the United States achieved by not interfering in the affairs of others. They see foreign entanglements not as providing homeland security, but as generating threats to it. They do not understand that what they want, American prosperity without international risks, is by definition impossible. The U.S. economy is roughly 25 percent of the world's economy. The American military controls the seas, not all at the same time, but anywhere it wishes at any given time. The United States also controls outer space. It is impossible for the United States not to intrude on the affairs of most countries in the world simply by virtue of its daily operations. The United States is an elephant that affects the world simply by being in the same room with it. The only way to not be an elephant is to shrink in size, and whether the United States would ever want this aside, decreasing power is harder to do than it might appear -- and much more painful.

Obama's challenge is managing U.S. power without decreasing its size and without imposing undue costs on it. This sounds like an attractive idea, but it ultimately won't work: The United States cannot be what it is without attracting hostile attention. For some of Obama's supporters, it is American behavior that generates hostility. Actually, it is America's presence -- its very size -- that intrudes on the world and generates hostility.

On the domestic front, the isolationist-internationalist divide in the United States has always been specious. Isolationists before World War II simply wanted to let the European balance of power manage itself. They wanted to buy time, but had no problem with intervening in China against Japan. The internationalists simply wanted to move from the first to the second stage, arguing that the first stage had failed. There was thus no argument in principle between them; there was simply a debate over how much time to give the process to see if it worked out. Both sides had the same strategy, but simply a different read of the moment. In retrospect, Franklin Roosevelt was right, but only because France collapsed in the face of the Nazi onslaught in a matter of weeks. That aside, the isolationist argument was quite rational.

Like that of Britain or Rome, U.S. grand strategy is driven by the sheer size of the national enterprise, a size achieved less through planning than by geography and history. Having arrived where it has, the United States has three layers to its strategy.

First, the United States must maintain the balance of power in various regions in the world. It does this by supporting a range of powers, usually the weaker against the stronger. Ideally, this balance of power maintains itself without American effort and yields relative stability. But stability is secondary to keeping local powers focused on each other rather than on the United States: Stability is a rhetorical device, not a goal. The real U.S. interest lies in weakening and undermining emergent powers so they don't ultimately rise to challenge American power. This is a strategy of nipping things in the bud.

Second, where emergent powers cannot be maintained through the regional balance of power, the United States has an interest in sharing the burden of containing it with other major powers. The United States will seek to use such coalitions either to intimidate the emerging power via economic power or, in extremis, via military power.

Third, where it is impossible to build a coalition to coerce emerging powers, the United States must decide either to live with the emerging power, forge an alliance with it, or attack it unilaterally.

Obama, as with any president, will first pursue the first layer of the strategy, using as little American power as possible and waiting as long as possible to see whether this works. The key here lies in not taking premature action that could prove more dangerous or costly than necessary. If that fails, his strategy is to create a coalition of powers to share the cost and risk. And only when that fails -- which is a function of time and politics -- will Obama turn to the third layer, which can range from simply living with the emerging power and making a suitable deal or crushing it militarily.

When al Qaeda attacked what it saw as the leading Christian power on Sept. 11, Bush found himself thrown into the third stage very rapidly. The second phase was illusory; sympathy aside, the quantity of military force allies could and would bring to bear was minimal. Even active allies like Britain and Australia couldn't bring decisive force to bear. Bush was forced into unilateralism not so much by the lack of will among allies as by their lack of power. His choice lay in creating chaos in the Islamic world and then forming alliances out of the debris, or trying to impose a direct solution through military force. He began with the second and shifted to the first.

Obama's Choices
Obama has more room to maneuver than Bush had. In the case of Iran, no regional solution is possible. Israel can only barely reach into the region, and while its air force might suffice to attack Iranian nuclear facilities, and air attacks might be sufficient to destroy them, Israel could not deal with the Iranian response of mining the Strait of Hormuz and/or destabilizing Iraq. The United States must absorb these blows.

Therefore, Obama has tried to build an anti-Iranian coalition to intimidate Tehran. Given the Russian and Chinese positions, this seems to have failed, and Iran has not been intimidated. That leaves Obama with two possible paths. One is the path followed by Nixon in China: ally with Iran against Russian influence, accepting it as a nuclear power and dealing with it through a combination of political alignment and deterrence. The second option is dealing with Iran militarily.

His choice thus lies between entente or war. He is bluffing war in hopes of getting what he wants, in the meantime hoping that internal events in Iran may evolve in a way suitable to U.S. interests or that Russian economic hardship evolves into increased Russian dependence on the United States such that Washington can extract Russian concessions on Iran. Given the state of Iran's nuclear development, which is still not near a weapon, Obama is using time to try to head off the third stage.

In Afghanistan, where Obama is already in the third stage and where he is being urged to go deeper in, he is searching for a way to return to the first stage, wherein an indigenous coalition emerges that neutralizes Afghanistan through its own internal dynamic. Hence, Washington is negotiating with the Taliban, trying to strengthen various factions in Afghanistan and not quite committing to more force. Winter is coming in Afghanistan, and that is the quiet time in that conflict. Obama is clearly buying time.

In that sense, Obama's foreign policy is neither as alien as his critics would argue nor as original as his supporters argue. He is adhering to the basic logic of American grand strategy, minimizing risks over time while seeking ways to impose low-cost solutions. It differs from Bush's policies primarily in that Bush had events forced on him and spent his presidency trying to regain the initiative.

The interesting point from where we sit is not only how deeply embedded Obama is in U.S. grand strategy, but how deeply drawn he is into the unintended imperial enterprise that has dominated American foreign policy since the 1930s -- an enterprise neither welcomed nor acknowledged by most Americans. Empires aren't planned, at least not successful empires, as Hitler and Napoleon learned to their regret. Empires happen as the result of the sheer reality of power. The elephant in the room cannot stop being an elephant, nor can the smaller animals ignore him. No matter how courteous the elephant, it is his power -- his capabilities -- not his intentions that matter.

Obama is now the elephant in the room. He has bought as much time as possible to make decisions, and he is being as amiable as possible to try to build as large a coalition as possible. But the coalition has neither the power nor appetite for the risks involved, so Obama will have to decide whether to live with Iran, form an alliance with Iran or go to war with Iran. In Afghanistan, he must decide whether he can recreate the balance of power by staying longer and whether this will be more effective by sending more troops, or whether it is time to begin withdrawal. In both cases, he can use the art of the bluff to shape the behavior of others, maybe.

He came into the presidency promising to be more amiable than Bush, something not difficult given the circumstances. He is now trying to convert amiability into a coalition, a much harder thing to do. In the end, he will have to make hard decisions. In American foreign policy, however, the ideal strategy is always to buy time so as to let the bribes, bluffs and threats do their work. Obama himself probably doesn't know what he will do; that will depend on circumstances. Letting events flow until they can no longer be tolerated is the essence of American grand strategy, a path Obama is following faithfully.

It should always be remembered that this long-standing American policy has frequently culminated in war, as with Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman, Johnson and Bush. It was Clinton's watchful waiting to see how things played out, after all, that allowed al Qaeda the time to build and strike. But this is not a criticism of Clinton -- U.S. strategy is to trade time for risk. Over time, the risk might lead to war anyway, but then again, it might not. If war does come, American power is still decisive, if not in creating peace, then certainly in wreaking havoc upon rising powers. And that is the foundation of empire.
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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
If you find it understandable, shame on you.

Matt
Empathy is the foundation of morality. One doesn't have to condone the attacks to understand them. Humans kill each other daily for all sorts of reasons, and if it is to be stopped (not entirely, but the worst of it at least), one has to try to understand the motives. That these men felt justified in creating the tragedy they did is tragic in itself. What they lacked was empathy, and we should not follow their footsteps.
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

Quote:
Originally Posted by chassisman View Post
Any word from Obama (the can'tdecider) yet?
Negative. Hes too busy campaigning. Here what his advisor said, though.

Quote:
STEPHANOPOULOS: And we also -- we're getting some word following the president's meeting with the joint chiefs on Friday that the target date for announcing this decision may be slipping a bit. The president wants some more information from the Joint Chiefs.

Is it now possible that it's going to come after the president returns from Asia, more like the end of November than the middle?

JARRETT: What the president has said consistently is he is going through a very rigorous process. George, before he puts our men and women in harm's way, he wants to make absolutely sure that he has a strategy. This isn't just a matter of how many troops are sent over. Although that is a very important component.

We have to look at what's going on on the ground. We have to look at what our allies are doing. We have to look at the state of the government in Afghanistan. And he's looking for a strategy that leads to keeping our nation safe. And so the timing for that is completely up to the president, who makes the decision when he is confident that he has all of the facts that he needs to make the right decision for our country.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So it could be later in the month. Let me just -- also this week the president went to Dover. And we want to show our audience some of the pictures from that. The president seemed -- did seem quite moved, almost stricken at times during that visit. It had quite an impact on the president, didn't it?

JARRETT: How could it not? I mean, my goodness, to meet the families of people who have given their lives, the maximum sacrifice to our country? Of course he was deeply moved by the experience. Anyone who was there would have to be.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Did you have a chance to talk to him about it and how do you think it will affect his decision-making?

JARRETT: I think that he is going to make the decision that he -- that he thinks is right for the American people. It certainly is a reminder of what is at stake. And you talk about 40,000 troops, behind every troop is a family. And it's a huge sacrifice that we're asking our men and women to make.
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
Joint Chiefs of Staff Member

 
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Marcel View Post
Not every issue that faces America is partisan.
True.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Marcel View Post
Afghanistan is not a liberal or conservative problem. It's an American problem.
True.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Marcel View Post
The war was lost the minute we landed there since we didn't properly evaluate the circumstances on the ground beforehand.
False.

I might add, in my best non-partisan voice, that I have never met a conservative that holds that view. The issues may not be partisan, but the response to those issues certainly is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Marcel View Post
Had we studied things carefully, we would have realized that Afghanistan is under a constant civil war between tribal militias.
I am sure that things were studied carefully, and that the political landscape of Afghanistan offered few surprises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Marcel View Post
Every day that we stay there is one more day that we're simply trying to save face.
False.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Marcel View Post
We're scapegoating our political responsibilities on the troops, which is unfair to them. They're built to win wars, not to nation build or negotiate the peace or to make any other political accomodations.
Partly true. But this has been going on for decades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Marcel View Post
America loves to say it doesn't negotiate with terrorists, but in reality it does. Until there is an agreement reached between the differing regional factions (there won't be because they've been fighting for years), there will be no peace in Afghanistan.
Again, through your partisan eyes, you can not see the big picture. Why do you conclude that we want peace in Afghanistan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Marcel View Post
This thing was lost a long time ago because of poor planning and even poorer judgment. Adding 20,000 more troops, than increasing it by 40,000 more over the next few months is meaningless. Meanwhile, our presence over there makes Pakistan less stable.
False, again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Marcel View Post
We're such fuck-ups on this one. It's time to come to our sense and just come home already. This notion that interrupting the so-called terrorist jungle gyms and training camps over will lead us to some kind of security is the biggest bullshit lie of them all and defies all logic.
Again, you apparently believe the for public press releases without thinking about the actual reasons that we do what we do. Here is a hint: We did not go to Iraq because of WMDs. That was our excuse, and we disposed of Saddam, but the reason that we went to Iraq is oil. Afghanistan is much the same as Iraq.
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 2 Weeks Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luap View Post
Having Iraqi oil sold in dollars is important for the US, but how have we commanded where the oil is going, or benefited from it?
What I meant is that we will not let it go where we don't want it to go. We will stay there indefinitely, and we will stand ready to deny that oil from our adversaries if need be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luap View Post
I asked before, but how does being in Afghanistan help the United States in its supposed goal of securing Iranian oil and gas fields? If our goal was to mass a bunch of troops in Afghanistan to sweep across the Persian Plateau, why has Obama juggled the decision on the soldier increase? Or rather, why would we have to mass troops in the first place in Afghanistan with our naval capability and military presence along Iran's west and southwestern borders?
I will have to admit that I don't know the exact military strategy behind our presence in Afghanistan. I do know that it is part of our overall Middle East strategy, and that it concerns both Iran, and also the various "Stan" countries to the north, and their energy resources. Everything that we do has a purpose. In the Middle East, that purpose is energy.

Obama has juggled no decision. He is but a front man. He uh, um, uh, could not um, um, uh, uh be trusted um, uh, um, uh, uh, um, to make uh, uh, um, uh, uh, um, those kinds uh, um, um, um, uh, of decisions.
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 1 Week Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

It's now been over three months since the request, and Obama still can't manage to address this issue.

There was a brief glimmer of hope over the weekend that Obama had finally managed to address this issue, but reports of his interest and involvement were apparently overstated:

Quote:
"Reports that President Obama has made a decision about Afghanistan are absolutely false," Jones, who has a low public profile, said in a statement. "He has not received final options for his consideration, he has not reviewed those options with his national security team, and he has not made any decisions about resources. Any reports to the contrary are completely untrue and come from uninformed sources."

White House: No Afghanistan troop decision made - CNN.com
Curiously, Obama wasn't unable to take a position on Afghanistan in the campaign, where he advocated sending many more troops.

Apparently, Obama managed to find some time to think about it when he was a candidate, but as Commander in Chief, he can't be bothered yet. According to the CNN article above, we might hear from him "in the coming weeks".

He's had almost 1/3 of his entire administration to address this issue, and he has completely failed to do so.

I guess "Hope and Change" has become "Hope it goes away".

Matt
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 1 Week Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

Meanwhile, he has plenty of time to campaign for healthcare.
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old 1 Week Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

The only thing that makes this even worthy of discussion is the use of words like "can't manage." Apparently, some believe making the wrong decision instantly is superior to making the right decision based on data and thoughtfulness.

Luckily, "some" got trounced in the last presidential election.
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old 1 Week Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

You'd have a point if there was any intelligent way to claim this decision was being rushed.

Three months of indecision and waffling.

IMHO, what we are seeing here is paralysis through analysis, and perhaps evidence that this issue isn't really a priority for the Obama administration.

Matt
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old 1 Week Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschmidt View Post
The only thing that makes this even worthy of discussion is the use of words like "can't manage." Apparently, some believe making the wrong decision instantly is superior to making the right decision based on data and thoughtfulness.

Luckily, "some" got trounced in the last presidential election.
you are up on the whole afghan issue as its been handled by Obama since his election I assume, or are you just stretching your post count here….?
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 1 Week Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschmidt View Post
The only thing that makes this even worthy of discussion is the use of words like "can't manage." Apparently, some believe making the wrong decision instantly is superior to making the right decision based on data and thoughtfulness.

Luckily, "some" got trounced in the last presidential election.
Obama was brought in on Afghanistan and Iraq from even before the election. McCain was as well. A comprehensive review on Afghanistan was completed right before Obama took office and handed to the Obama team. Obama then sent a new general and some troops to get another comprehensive review which was turned in with reccomendations by the generals on the ground, 3 months ago.

What other information or thinking does he have to do exactly before you consider him to have done enough reviewing and thinking?
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 1 Week Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

And he STILL can't make a decision. YouTube - Rachel Maddow: Obama Rejects All Military Options For Afghanistan

What the fuck, Obama?
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 1 Week Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
You'd have a point if there was any intelligent way to claim this decision was being rushed.

Three months of indecision and waffling.

IMHO, what we are seeing here is paralysis through analysis, and perhaps evidence that this issue isn't really a priority for the Obama administration.

Matt


Ya gotta cut the poor guy some slack. He has important matters that require his undivided attention.

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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 1 Week Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

Interesting turn of events.

BBC NEWS | Americas | US envoy opposed to Afghan surge
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  #135 (permalink)  
Old 1 Week Ago
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Re: It's been 76 days since the request for more troops in Afghanistan....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey_Left View Post
I dont think the solution is in sending more troops in, because this has happened in the past, ... the US sent more troops to afghanistan.... and the results were negative.

It is good to acknowledge that there is a corruption problem inside the Afghani Government, BUT, it is bad not to acknowledge that members of that same corrupted government, such as Ahmed Karzai, are on the CIA payroll.

Oh, and the US helped put this government in power,... so all I can say right now is, WTF?

I find this funny, the Americans are part of the problem, and they are telling the Afghani Government to find the solution. LOL

WS.
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