There is corruption in ever country, that much is true, but looking over the 2008 Corruption Perceptions Index, (the most recent available) there isn’t a single Muslim country in the top 25, while the bottom of the list is almost exclusively Islamic. I’m not suggesting Islam breeds corruption, but it certainly appears to thrive on it.

To be frank, I couldn’t give a shit if someone says "And with corruption so rampant in Christian countries...." If they have some stats to back it up, so be it.

BTW, nice dodge on the other point I made. In case you’ve forgotten, it was how are we supposed to gather information on criminal organizations without having contact with criminals?

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“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.” - Lord Palmerston

The bottom of the list has Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan... its not about their "islamic" status, its because they are undergoin a war... infact most of countries down the bottom are under goin some sort of armed conflict or they are simply amongst the poorest, i.e african countries. Are you surprised? America invaded a couple of them.

The point you are trying to sell here is that Islam somehow supports corruption (you said thrives on it??),...thats not true. Can I say that since America has the highest crime level in the world ... Christianity is supporting this? Lets cut the crap mate, and keep it purely politics before you turn into a Larson. I am not letting this pass,... having a little go at Islam behind your cleverly worded post. There was no need even label them as Muslim countries, its not their islamic status, there are other factors that caused this.

Now am going to destroy your argument AGAIN... read below.

Well, I agree here,... you are in contact with criminals because YOU INSTALLED THESE CRIMINALS IN POWER to serve you. America's interests sadly come before Afghanis and Iraqis' interests... so dont sell that bullshit that you are freeing Afghanis and Iraqis while you bring fked up criminals to control their governments.

Middle Eastern countries are full of corruption no doubt, I am not disagreeing with you here... but its not because they are "Muslim countries" but because they have dictatorships in power who are considered "allies" by America. Look at them.. .Saudi, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, etc... i'll go as far as Tunisia... and the rest of North Africa.... some of them ruled for decades... and yet you still call them "allies".

The people cant change them because anyone who spoke about REAL democracy is rotting in prison along with those individuals sent by the CIA who are being tortured in those countries as well.

AMERICA is directly and/or indirectly contributing to this corruption and dictatorship and injustice in these countries. When you stop funding and supporting these criminals, they will fall, the people will then elect real leaders who care about these countries. Only then, they will make the top 25 in your list.

WS.

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"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom"- Malcom X

What AGAIN??? You need a first before there’s and AGAIN. Sure, you can say that “since America has the highest crime level in the world ... Christianity is supporting this”, but, like so many of your posts, its utter nonsense. That’s like comparing apples to raisons. Even if it were true that the US is doesn’t have the highest crime level, which it doesn’t, a single instance doesn’t illustrate a trend. I didn’t say the United Arab Emirates was overly corrupt because it was Islamic (although it does score lower than Israel); I said according to the stats, Islamic countries tend to be unusually corrupt. There’s no point in trying to deny it.

Is pointing out that most of today’s armed conflicts are occurring in Islamic countries and that they are exceptionally poor somehow supposed to detract from my argument? If so, I don’t see how; more like it paints Islam in an even more disturbing light. I don’t really believe the problem is with Islam as a religion, I see it more as a problem that arises when religion, any religion, mixes with politics. The West went thru something similar about 7 centuries ago with Christianity. Hopefully the new Islamic Dark Ages won’t last as long.



I never said your religion was the cause of the corruption, just that Islamic countries, by and large, are particularly corrupt. Obviously, it does nothing to help solve that problem. As far as leadership of those nations goes, in any nation, there are a limited number of people who can generate the public support required for massive governmental reforms; and judging from the stats, they’re all likely to be involved in corruption to some degree. Blaming the internal problems of so many Muslim countries on a scapegoat like the US is convenient, but it does nothing to address the real causes of those problems. In fact, it does nothing but hamper efforts to address and correct those problems, but it’s a great strategy for those corrupt individuals in power to distract the public’s attention and allow them to remain in power.

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“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.” - Lord Palmerston

this actually seems like something that could make for a really great discussion, but even though i haven't read the thread yet, you should know that you're not going to get rational responses when you use such an insulting writing style.

"You want to free Afghanistan and its people by putting these corrupted people in charge?"

who is "you?" you do realize that america is populated by more than one person, right? it's not like we all call each other on sundays and try to come up with a plan on how to fuck over the rest of the world. seems to me like if this story were true, 99% of americans would be just as pissed about it as you seem to be.

my point is that you have a good point, but you could communicate it a lot more effectively if you didn't sound like such a douche.

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"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." --Thomas Paine

Ok BG85 point taken. I was addressing the large portion of rightwingers here and they know who they are. I am aware that there are many Americans against the war and want to bring their boys home. I am not addressing all of America.

I agree my tone is sometimes aggressive but bear in mind as a human being, I was bound to react emotionally and get frustrated at the fact that the American Military in Afghanistan is politically and militarily dealing with people like him. It should anger anyone especially the American people themselves since this is jeopardizing the lives of their children there and the "mission" whatever that one is.

Thanks for raising this point. I'll work in my communication skills. I should type more often during the morning when am in a fresh relaxing mood.

WS.

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"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom"- Malcom X

CYD, I totally agree with you that the vast majority of Arab countries have corrupted leaderships. Thats not what am disputing. I am disputing how you are referring to them as "Muslim" counters or "Islamic" countries and in doing that, you are automatically sticking the corruption problem to Islam.

Do you refer to the South American countries as Christian countries when you are addressing their dark sides? You are saying that Islam is not the problem but at the same time you are indirectly associating Islam with the corruption problem and you know that is incorrect, you have stated this yourself at the beginning of the quote above.

Second point I made was regarding American politics in the region and how so many of these dictatorships are openly considered "friends" and "allies". You said the root causes have to be dealt with.... isnt this a root cause? When you have the world's number one super power backing you up... wouldnt you feel like you can practice your corruption safely? This is what I consider a root cause that need to be dealt with.

Either America should properly promote democracy in the region or back off, pull the plug on those dictatorships so they can fall.

I am totally with you, plenty of corruption in the Middle East, no doubt.

WS.

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"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom"- Malcom X

classy reply.

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"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." --Thomas Paine

It would be good to understand that American foreign policy is controlled by the Military Industrial Complex and not by the American people.

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"Jesus said: I have cast fire upon the world, and behold I guard it until it is ablaze."
Gospel of Thomas