People aren't being arrested for non-terrorist shit so either they suck at spying or they're overlooking everything except suspected terrorist activity.

Like it matters anyways... Look at google earth and the cameras on every street lamp....

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Sic Semper Tyrannis






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Just because people aren't being arrested "for non-terrorist shit" as you phrase it would not justify it. If spying on the "average American" is happening, then it is a violation of the fourth amendment. In principle, it is a violation of due process.

Oh, I'm not saying it's happening, just that it's now easier for it to happen legally. It's one of those situations where it's okay until it becomes a problem. Identical to my gun control argument. I don't plan on revolting against the government, but if I ever have to, the capacity has to be there.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

Are you saying that this Act is limiting your ability to challenge the government on any ground? Where did I read that quote "too much government is bad government"....

What people fear is ... the government hiding behind these Acts to step on people's liberties and limit their freedom and take control away from the people and give it to the government... this to me is anti-democracy.

I decided that such Acts are anti democratic. Its reversing those values that "great western nations are sitting on".

WS.

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"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom"- Malcom X

This exactly.
Significant if.

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"Jesus said: I have cast fire upon the world, and behold I guard it until it is ablaze."
Gospel of Thomas

I live in my basement now.
The government is watching with special satellite cameras that can see thru walls.

Kathaksan I hear is heading up the whole thing.

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The government cannot give without first taking.

I'm saying that it could. I don't believe that's actually happening at this point.

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During the journey we commonly forget its goal. Almost every profession is chosen as a means to an end but continued as an end in itself. Forgetting our objectives is the most frequent act of stupidity.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, The Wanderer and his Shadow

All good socialists have villas in Southern France. That's not the point.
-Eurosocialist

You can walk on water if you have special shoes too.

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The government cannot give without first taking.

Well, his gig has been rumbled! (He'll probably pass it on to Speakeasy now, presumably).

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http://georgewbushstore.com/

It always confuses me how the biggest supporters of the Patriot Act tend to be conservative Republicans when they should actually be the ones most against it due its radical expansions of government power.

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“If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.” - Carl Sagan

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I think conservatives are more philosophically opposed to the size of the government more than the power it has.

A lot of conservatives generally tend to support pro-law enforcement laws and statutes.

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The George W Bush Store:

http://georgewbushstore.com/

Yeah, this is just a lie. I have a lot of Muslim friends (with big beards and everything ) and they get checked like everybody else.

edit: What happened is she was checked once or twice and now it's "every time" and "because of her skin color".

However, I don't agree with the Patriot Act and don't need to wait for it to affect me to have a reason to be against it.

I honestly don't see a whole lot of difference between the two. If one opposes one, they should logically oppose the other I would think. A powerful iron fisted but small government is just as dangerous (if not more so) than an ever expanding bureaucracy. But I guess politics and logic aren't often friends.
Again, this confuses me. You're right, many conservatives due tend to support law enforcement but a lot of conservatives also tend to not trust giving the government too much control and power. Heck, a lot of complaints against liberals and Dems comes from the fear that they're giving the government too much control and power. There's also an inherent mistrust of the government in a lot of conservatives, as we've seen mentioned many times during the health care debate. The two seem to be incompatible, that the government can't be trusted to run health care efficiently and keep our health records or whatnot private, yet that very same government is trusted with the powers laid out in the Patriot Act.

Of course, many liberals and Democrats have the opposite views which seem just as bizarre and contradicting to me.

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“If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.” - Carl Sagan

Remember to submit your nominations for the U.S. Politics Online Alternative Awards!

Its not confusing if you just realize they're hypocrites.

Most republican issues don't hold water when you apply rationality to them. Being anti-abortion but being anti-S-Chip are self-contradictory, yet they take those positions simultaneously.

Affected me? well, for one thing I had to remove the artillery piece from my front lawn and render it inert, those bastards...

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"The captain has turned off the `No Dubbing' sign. You are free to speak any language you choose."