Thread: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Originally Posted by iamwhatiseem

Not really....in the 1960's - that would have been awesome shooting.
But when you have a computer controlled targeting system that counteracts motion, measures exact distance and triangulates the correct angle necessary - you got one helluva chance of hitting the target.
The Apache 300 mm, in what I read from the makers website...is considered highly accurate up to one mile..or just over 17 football fields.

What your saying is...these things are just death from the sky, and once they have you in their sights your toast...

...we as a species are just too good at killing each other people

Originally Posted by Steve

a 300 mm chain gun?


I don't think the bird would be able to lift 1/2 second's worth of shells, much less keep control when firing.

Originally Posted by Renton

Even with computer control that's still some shooting

Not really.

It's pretty standard marksmanship.

Those guys wouldn't be shooting that gun unless they could put PGU-13/B HEI on target at 1000m pretty much the first time every time.

Originally Posted by WFCY

Thanks for sharing. Well, "ideally", soldiers are not supposed to get emotional about their job, which inherently involves killing. But it is inevitable, we are humans. I have not met any Iraq vet here in Germany (and I do run into a few, since I work with some in the past 5 years, not now tho) who would say "I enjoy Iraq and I look forward going back there"- it would be an obvious troll and we would all get it right away. In fact a lot of them hated it. Nevertheless, some of them would sign up again for the bonuses and for the fact they don't really know what to do anymore to get a civilian job, in a way military is a kind of shelter.

I do not know any neocons in power personally, but I certainly disagree with one of the primary themes of that movie "the Hurt Locker" (and some cheezy parts which are totally surreal for anyone who's been in the military), that war is addictive for the grunts. I have never met a grunt who loves war, or is "addicted" to it... ONLY the civilian, neocon fuckers in airconditioned offices sending people out to die, are addicted to wars. They are invulnerable, risk nothing, get power trips and show off their machismo on TV. But for those they send out, you have to deal with the pressure and the trama all the time it's difficult to stay cool, objective, and on the mission. And I guess that was part of the problem with this video.

That is the same point that Chris Hedges makes in War is a force that gives us meaning. Many people get addicted to it because it makes their otherwise routine and meaningless day to day grind more bearable.

Andrew

Originally Posted by Renton

Blast...can't get the link to work...is it just me?

Right click and download it

Originally Posted by Renton

What your saying is...these things are just death from the sky, and once they have you in their sights your toast...

...we as a species are just too good at killing each other people

...and very good at pretending they are not really other people.

Andrew

Originally Posted by Andrewl

That is the same point that Chris Hedges makes in War is a force that gives us meaning. Many people get addicted to it because it makes their otherwise routine and meaningless day to day grind more bearable.

Andrew

I have not met any Iraq vet (not many, about 120 or so) who have said they are "addicted to war" because "war gives them meaning". Maybe it has something to do with my role as a person who supports GI and their families stationed abroad. I suppose if you enjoy fighting in Iraq you would never call for support and talk to an American expat off base. Okay.

I just can't personally imagine a grunt who would be addicted to fighting in Iraq personally. I met too many people with PTSD and it really ruins their lives for ever, even for their chidren.... it's like death, if you are that fucked up, there is no pleasure in life anymore. Sometimes me and my co-organizer Penny, we cry over it.... I hope u know what I mean, I just think it's a bit unrealistic. Again, it's not an argument. But we are humans and we are not made for war, or the war crimes that comes along with it.

Originally Posted by WFCY

I have not met any Iraq vet (not many, about 120 or so) who have said they are "addicted to war" because "war gives them meaning". Maybe it has something to do with my role as a person who supports GI and their families stationed abroad. I suppose if you enjoy fighting in Iraq you would never call for support and talk to an American expat off base. Okay.

I just can't personally imagine a grunt who would be addicted to fighting in Iraq personally. I met too many people with PTSD and it really ruins their lives for ever, even for their chidren.... it's like death, if you are that fucked up, there is no pleasure in life anymore. Sometimes me and my co-organizer Penny, we cry over it.... I hope u know what I mean, I just think it's a bit unrealistic. Again, it's not an argument. But we are humans and we are not made for war, or the war crimes that comes along with it.

Agreed. Hedges is talking about civilians, not soldiers.

But i also think it is true that many soldiers like to kill, they count their kills, and the get a rush from killing. They also likely miss the bonding and the brotherhood when their tour is done or the war is over.

But the "addiction" is on the part of the civilians, and governments are very deliberate about the propaganda they use to encourage it.

Andrew

Originally Posted by Andrewl

Agreed. Hedges is talking about civilians, not soldiers.

But i also think it is true that many soldiers like to kill, they count their kills, and the get a rush from killing. They also likely miss the bonding and the brotherhood when their tour is done or the war is over.

But the "addiction" is on the part of the civilians, and governments are very deliberate about the propaganda they use to encourage it.

Andrew

First, the number of combat vets I can think of that "got off" on killing is ONE...and he blew his brains out later on. Lots of guys talk shit before actually getting their feet wet but things have a way of changing when the danger is so close that you can smell it. There are a few that go off looking for trouble but most of them don't last too long and their number is way, way less than "many".

The only civilians I see getting off on war are the anti-war crowd. Nothing seems to bring out the freaks like death count headlines do.

As far as governments getting addicted to war....kind of....it's sort of like one of the ways that countries work their way up the international "pecking order". The trick is to only be on the winning side of the most "popular" dust-ups.

Originally Posted by Steve

They were a lot further away than 800 yards.

Either that, or they weren't shooting with the 30mm cannon that Apaches have been fitted with for years...

I only established a minimum distance of 600 yards.The 800 yards figure comes out of the sworn statements of the people involved, i.c. the person identified as CW3.

Originally Posted by iamwhatiseem

WHoah there...I guess no one picked up the statement from the gunner in his sworn statement??

That's a pretty bid piece of information left out of all these news stories.
WTF?

That's the black sedan. It has been mentioned before. It's clearly identified as a sedan in the statements : "They said a black 4-door sedan" and "4-door passenger vehicle".

This is clearly not the van in the video.

Originally Posted by Andrewl

Agreed. Hedges is talking about civilians, not soldiers.

But i also think it is true that many soldiers like to kill, they count their kills, and the get a rush from killing. They also likely miss the bonding and the brotherhood when their tour is done or the war is over.

But the "addiction" is on the part of the civilians, and governments are very deliberate about the propaganda they use to encourage it.

Andrew

I, like others here, have never met a soldier or Marine who likes to kill. On the flip side, I haven't met many who had a problem with it either. For example, I know how many men I killed and there was a real rush afterwards. Not so much from having killed someone, but having survived and knowing I came out on top. As for the brotherhood, well, you are right.

Originally Posted by lutherf

The only civilians I see getting off on war are the anti-war crowd. Nothing seems to bring out the freaks like death count headlines do.

If anti-war crowd get off on war, we would be pro-war, not anti-war. The idea is we want the war to stop, and bring our soldiers home, away from danger. It's the very defintion of "anti-war".