Thread: Families mark 1 year of US hikers' Iran detention

Originally Posted by wooyarn

How many people, both American and Iranian are you willing to kill, how much more in debt are you willing to go just to get 3 idiots.
I assume you will be going to the local recruiter today to sign up for the rescue mission. I hear the Army is looking for a few good men.

Ah yes, a personal attack. So unexpected. To answer the actual on topic part of your post, I would be willing to sacrafice as many american soldiers as it takes to free kidnapped citizens, were I American. And zero debt. I would sacrafice social spending though.

Originally Posted by jviehe

Ah yes, a personal attack. So unexpected. To answer the actual on topic part of your post, I would be willing to sacrafice as many american soldiers as it takes to free kidnapped citizens, were I American. And zero debt. I would sacrafice social spending though.

No personal attack intended. Just wanted to see if you were willing to make the same sacrafice you're asking others to make.
See as you are no longer an American, you have no standing to ask Americans to rescue these idiots.

What countries are you considering moving to?

Originally Posted by wooyarn

No personal attack intended. Just wanted to see if you were willing to make the same sacrafice you're asking others to make.
See as you are no longer an American, you have no standing to ask Americans to rescue these idiots.

What countries are you considering moving to?

Im not the topic here. My opinion is that US citizens expect and deserve to have their lives protected by the govt (as mandated by the US constitution) when foreign countries kidnap them as political pawns. If you disagree, then fine. If you want to present a reasoned argument in rebuttal, then do so.

Originally Posted by jviehe

Im not the topic here. My opinion is that US citizens expect and deserve to have their lives protected by the govt (as mandated by the US constitution) when foreign countries kidnap them as political pawns. If you disagree, then fine. If you want to present a reasoned argument in rebuttal, then do so.

Just curious, where does the Constitution talk about US Citizen being held outside the US? I don't disagree that we should be willing to support our Citizens where ever they find themselves I am just curious where you find this in the US Constitution.

Originally Posted by jviehe

Im not the topic here. My opinion is that US citizens expect and deserve to have their lives protected by the govt (as mandated by the US constitution) when foreign countries kidnap them as political pawns. If you disagree, then fine. If you want to present a reasoned argument in rebuttal, then do so.

Where in the Constitution does it say the US should go to war because people go where they were advised not to go?
What proof do you have that they were kidnapped?

When it costs more then 3 lives to rescue 3 lives, it's not worth the risk. Massing up troops besides the Iran border is not going to make them fold, it will unite Iran and cause either a huge embarrasment for the US (and no release of the prisoners) or thousands of deaths. Either way these 3 should pay for their own stupidity.

Originally Posted by Lost Time

Just curious, where does the Constitution talk about US Citizen being held outside the US? I don't disagree that we should be willing to support our Citizens where ever they find themselves I am just curious where you find this in the US Constitution.

Its not said as explicity as that, however the Declaration indicates we have the right to life and liberty, and that govt exists to ensure it. The consitution has several parts about not being deprived of life and liberty, and protecting us against war and violence. Since we are effectively at war with Iran, and these are civilians, they are bound by the Geneva Convention and other treaties. And then you have federal laws which impact on citizens traveling abroad. I would expect us to treat Iranian citizens mistakenly crossing our borders the same way. Investigate and release if no danger is found.

As Ive said before, these were not journalists or missionaries who had the intent and foreknowledge of trespassing on a foreign country, one with which we are at war with. These were civilians who made a stupid mistake. And they have not been treated reasonably, and the US has made no serious attempt to get them released. I am not arguing for war unless that is what is neccesary. I am arguing for the govt to do its most fundamental responsiblity, which is to protect the lives of its citizens.

Originally Posted by wooyarn

Where in the Constitution does it say the US should go to war because people go where they were advised not to go?
What proof do you have that they were kidnapped?

I have the lack of proof that they did anything worth the cruel punishment they recieved. The burden is on the accusers, not the accused.

Originally Posted by jviehe

Its not said as explicity as that, however the Declaration indicates we have the right to life and liberty, and that govt exists to ensure it. The consitution has several parts about not being deprived of life and liberty, and protecting us against war and violence. Since we are effectively at war with Iran, and these are civilians, they are bound by the Geneva Convention and other treaties. And then you have federal laws which impact on citizens traveling abroad. I would expect us to treat Iranian citizens mistakenly crossing our borders the same way. Investigate and release if no danger is found.

As Ive said before, these were not journalists or missionaries who had the intent and foreknowledge of trespassing on a foreign country, one with which we are at war with. These were civilians who made a stupid mistake. And they have not been treated reasonably, and the US has made no serious attempt to get them released. I am not arguing for war unless that is what is neccesary. I am arguing for the govt to do its most fundamental responsiblity, which is to protect the lives of its citizens.

1) When did we declare war with Iran?
2) I could be wrong here, but did Iran ever sign the Geneva Convention. If not then they are not bound by it. What treaties are you referring to?
3) Maybe the State Dept. is trying to gain their release and just not publishing it. Maybe Iran wants more then we are willing to give.
These 3 idiots went where they were advised not to go. Sometimes people just have to take responsibility for their decisions.

Originally Posted by jviehe

I have the lack of proof that they did anything worth the cruel punishment they recieved. The burden is on the accusers, not the accused.

Does Iran not have the right to protect their borders?
You want the US Gov. (the gov that you say you are no longer a part of) to protect and close our border with Mexico.

Heres some info for traveling to Iran.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1142.html

Originally Posted by wooyarn

1) When did we declare war with Iran?
2) I could be wrong here, but did Iran ever sign the Geneva Convention. If not then they are not bound by it. What treaties are you referring to?
3) Maybe the State Dept. is trying to gain their release and just not publishing it. Maybe Iran wants more then we are willing to give.
These 3 idiots went where they were advised not to go. Sometimes people just have to take responsibility for their decisions.



Does Iran not have the right to protect their borders?
You want the US Gov. (the gov that you say you are no longer a part of) to protect and close our border with Mexico.

Heres some info for traveling to Iran.

Iran

1. Iran is at war with us. Whats the difference? Whether they signed the Geneva Convention or not, we did, and the US adheres to protecting civilians against illegal foreign imprisonment. If the govt is doing something get their release, they arent doing enough. Iran has the right to protect their border. The US has the right to defend its citizens.

Originally Posted by jviehe

The US has the right to defend its citizens.

Sure, but when it cost many more lives to save 3 lives, it doesn't make any sense. In the end this comes down to cost/benefit. The benefit is clear, 3 lives. But the cost isn't. Noone of us here knows the cost, but we can be damned sure it's more then 3 lives if we follow your suggestion of massing troops near the border.

Declaring war on every country the US has bad relations with and who has American citizen's in jail is just bad policy, from whatever angle you look at it.

Originally Posted by jviehe

1. Iran is at war with us. Whats the difference? Whether they signed the Geneva Convention or not, we did, and the US adheres to protecting civilians against illegal foreign imprisonment. If the govt is doing something get their release, they arent doing enough. Iran has the right to protect their border. The US has the right to defend its citizens.

Legally it makes a lot of difference because if countries declare war then they automatically agree to hold themselves to the Hague Conventions in which their is a Geneva protocol. If there isn't officially a war then it isn't necessary to adhere to that protocol.

Originally Posted by jviehe

1. Iran is at war with us. Whats the difference? Whether they signed the Geneva Convention or not, we did, and the US adheres to protecting civilians against illegal foreign imprisonment. If the govt is doing something get their release, they arent doing enough. Iran has the right to protect their border. The US has the right to defend its citizens.

How the hell is Iran at war with us?


The US does have the right to defend its citizens. However, it does not have an obligation to protect its citizens from their own stupidity.