Thread: If we just stepped back, rasdical Islam would destroy itself

Originally Posted by fishjoel

I'd argue that one as well. I don't know of very many wars that were strictly just about Christianity or had a large amount of people killed. Like USCitizen said about the Crusades, though it had heavy Christian overtones, it was more of a reaction to Islamic incursions.

So what was the Crusaders' massacres of Jews in reaction to?

Your distinction between a war "just about Christianity" and a war with "heavy Christian overtones" seems to me to be a bit of rationalization. And honestly, I am not sure why it is necessary to deny the rampant violence, not to mention toxic anti-Semitism that permeated Christian history. That was then. Now, I am raising my Jewish children in an overwhelmingly Christian country and they have not known a moment of anti-Semitism in their lives. Things change.

Additionally, you have to keep the time periods in mind, as they are relevant. You can't compare what happened hundreds of years ago, when freaking everyone in the world was brutal to modern times.

It all depends on your perspective, I suppose. On the one hand, it is true that Islam has had 700 fewer years to "mature" than Christianity; on the other hand, as you correctly point out, we live in a more enlightened time. We also live in a more technologically advanced time, which means that Islam's violence may ultimately prove far more destructive than its predecessor religions'. Hopefully not, but we'll see.

Originally Posted by AdamKadmon

So what was the Crusaders' massacres of Jews in reaction to?

My posting was factual, not humor.
Most of these crusaders were simply drunk and hooligans.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

My posting was factual, not humor.
Most of these crusaders were simply drunk and hooligans.

If true, that doesn't change the Christian nature of the Crusades, nor justify the murder of roughly 10,000 Jews along the way.

Originally Posted by AdamKadmon

Islam is 700 years younger than Christianity and (depending on where you choose to start counting) thousands of years younger than Judaism. Islam is nowhere near as destructive as Christianity was at its worst. The problem, however, is that today's weaponry has the potential to wreak tremendous havoc. Chemical, biological or nuclear devices in the hands of these maniacs would definitely be problematic.

I think I might agree. But I am not real familiar with Islamic history in this area. But the difference between the two might be nothing more than a much wealthier Catholic Church, who had the resources to prosletize with the sword.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

I will blow up this plane if you don't buy my Edition of The Red Letter Bible!

Whatevs! I do King James version. On a side note, if you do read the King James version you realize just how much the English language has degraded. It's much more nuanced and meaningful.

Originally Posted by AdamKadmon

If true, that doesn't change the Christian nature of the Crusades, nor justify the murder of roughly 10,000 Jews along the way.

I read TNT 6 times back in 1998-1999.
If you read The Gospels According To... you would be hanging Jews from trees.
I read the whole thing, not just a few selected verses.

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Originally Posted by fishjoel

Whatevs! I do King James version. On a side note, if you do read the King James version you realize just how much the English language has degraded. It's much more nuanced and meaningful.

If you could read The Jewish Scriptures in Hebrew you'd unfortunately know what a bad translation The KJV is.

Originally Posted by AdamKadmon

So what was the Crusaders' massacres of Jews in reaction to?

Your distinction between a war "just about Christianity" and a war with "heavy Christian overtones" seems to me to be a bit of rationalization. And honestly, I am not sure why it is necessary to deny the rampant violence, not to mention toxic anti-Semitism that permeated Christian history. That was then. Now, I am raising my Jewish children in an overwhelmingly Christian country and they have not known a moment of anti-Semitism in their lives. Things change.

It all depends on your perspective, I suppose. On the one hand, it is true that Islam has had 700 fewer years to "mature" than Christianity; on the other hand, as you correctly point out, we live in a more enlightened time. We also live in a more technologically advanced time, which means that Islam's violence may ultimately prove far more destructive than its predecessor religions'. Hopefully not, but we'll see.

Fine. Let's go to the foundings then. Christianity spread under heavy persecution and was very pacifist for about 300 years until it was co-opted by the Roman Empire. Islam spread by the sword from pretty much it's inception. Is that stark enough for you?

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

I think I might agree. But I am not real familiar with Islamic history in this area. But the difference between the two might be nothing more than a much wealthier Catholic Church, who had the resources to prosletize with the sword.

TNT is rife with references to TJS while the first (or second) Sura of the Koran immediately dismisses the currently existing Torah scroll of being unreliable due to the diaspora.
So Islam really had nothing to prove to a parent religion that rejected the new religion.

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Originally Posted by fishjoel

Fine. Let's go to the foundings then. Christianity spread under heavy persecution and was very pacifist for about 300 years until it was co-opted by the Roman Empire. Islam spread by the sword from pretty much it's inception. Is that stark enough for you?

It's stark enough for me and pretty much sums up what perhaps Constantine did to the original Greek to create the united empire he desired.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

I read TNT 6 times back in 1998-1999.
If you read The Gospels According To... you would be hanging Jews from trees.
I read the whole thing, not just a few selected verses.

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If you could read The Jewish Scriptures in Hebrew you'd unfortunately know what a bad translation The KJV is.

I can read it in Arabic, does that count, lolol!!! Anyways, most of TNT was written in Greek. So....unless I want to master multiple languages I'll simply have to settle for a concordance.

Originally Posted by USCitizen

I read TNT 6 times back in 1998-1999.
If you read The Gospels According To... you would be hanging Jews from trees.
I read the whole thing, not just a few selected verses..

Kinda proves my point, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by fishjoel

Fine. Let's go to the foundings then. Christianity spread under heavy persecution and was very pacifist for about 300 years until it was co-opted by the Roman Empire. Islam spread by the sword from pretty much it's inception. Is that stark enough for you?

This is true, but I'm not sure what it proves, exactly.

Originally Posted by AdamKadmon

Kinda proves my point, doesn't it?

Yes.
The fact is that TNT was forbidden reading for the first millenia of the Church.
We have no clue as to how the original was doctored, but WAS doctored to build allegiance to the Church.
Thankfully, the Renaissance came along and started the dilution of the warfare methodology of allegiance.

Originally Posted by AdamKadmon

Not to get too technical, but Judaism tends not to focus on the afterlife and most Jews do not believe in inflicting their religious beliefs on others. Even in Israel, where the ultra-Orthodox hold disproportionate influence (due to the peculiarities of their parliamentary system) most of the country is secular. Yes, in Jerusalem, virtually everything closes down on Friday nights, but in Tel Aviv, you can ring in the Sabbath with a bacon cheese burger, if you so choose.

I'm impressed.

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Originally Posted by fishjoel

Oh...and churches are also known to be one of the biggest contributors of voluntary contributions of time and money in our society. Damn those evil churches!!!

Does not change all that much.