Who cares "how they were born"? What the fuck does that have to do with contract law?

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

Yes.

Perhaps you might ask them that.

I was "born" with a genetic predisposition to screw puppies. Does this mean I should be able to get laws changed so that I can legally DO so ?

Make law and society recognize my sick tendency as something that is to be considered a "normal" and "healthy" relationship between me and my fuzzy friends ?

Maybe I could even get married to fido when he/she matures ?

Contract law with fido :-)

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Something wicked this way comes.

Why would I ask them that? You seem to imply that "choosing" to be gay should preclude homosexuals from signing marriage contracts with another (whereas, I'm assuming, being born that way, would not). I'm asking you why it makes any difference. Choice, birth, who cares? None of it affects your ability to put pen to paper in a legally binding way.

As to whether or not you screw your dog, I must admit that I don't care one way or another. And, if you want to lobby for that to be legal, I say, have at it. That "law" has no real bearing on me one way or another, so I have no real opinion on it.

Why do you conflate "legal" with "normal"? It's legal for men to wear women's pantyhose and a thong at the beach... are you saying that's "normal"?

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

-Thomas Jefferson

You would ask them that, because that is one of their main ARGUMENTS for redefining a word describing a relationship (marriage).

It is one of the main "arguments" they use to support the false beleif that homosexuals are a minority group under current civil rights laws.

Minority status has been determined by the U.S. supreme court on three criteria:

1. Economic deprivation: No. Those engaged in the homosexual "lifestyle" are among the most advantaged people in the U.S. On average, they have a higher per capita income than heterosexuals and higher household incomes. [ Wall Street Journal, Feb. 10, 1989, and New York Times, Aug. 22, 1990 ]

2. Political powerlessness: No. Homosexuals demonstrate great influential political power far beyond their actual numbers. The human rights campaign fund has annually donated millions of dollars to candidates, more than most other non-corporate PACs [The Economist, Apr. 24, 1993]. Media news and entertainment coverage is overwhelmingly favorable.

3. Immutable characteristics: No. Minority groups share unchangeable, benign, non-behavioral traits such as race, ethnicity, disability, or national origin. Homosexuals are the only group to claim minority status based on behavior.

Homosexuals already have all of the rights of every other citizen. Property rights, even unmarried persons who are not partners have equal rights in the joint ownership of property.

As for me and my pooch ? Well, that's a topic for another time :-)

I'm glad you could care less if I "screw the pooch" though. That's very nice :-) Exactly the kind of attitude the "gay marriage" movement is looking for.

It isn't I that "conflates "legal" with "normal"". --- Moral it is. As for dog fucking, that's going to be easier to push as NORMAL rather than moral.

I think :-)

The legalization of marriage is so important to homosexuals because in their mind legal means moral. If you don't go to Gods word for the standards of right and wrong, good or evil, where do you go ? You go to the Law for all standards. So if the law says it's legal then you're OK.

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Something wicked this way comes.

Ah...no one here but you has put forth any argument conflating legality with morality. You appear to be arguing with yourself.

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please click and help the eggs hatch!

"The only abnormality is the incapacity to love"
-Anias Nin

For a short post you really served up a lot of ideas. Last first: The job of the government is not to protect the belief system of the majority as you suggest in your last two paragraphs. The whole idea of this country was to have the government provide freedom to EVERYBODY, not just the dominant religion. Freedom of religion means ALL religions, not just the majority one. Your sexual orientation is no more legitimate than anyone else's, it's just shared by more people. America is supposed to be a place where you can pursue your own happiness as long as you don't hurt others. Gay people are not hurting anyone. Let's bear in mind your dig about abortion, gay people are not contributing to the abortion stats--only heteros do that--so who's causing the most suffering?

It used to be that the XX and XY chromosome patterns were considered the determinant in gender typing, but that's no longer true. We now know that there are at least 9 different chromosome patterns found in human beings and they are NOT an absolute determinant of gender. There are completely normal males with the XX pattern and nomal females with the XY pattern. Scientists studying this have come to realize that maleness and femaleness fall on a continuum with every gradation in between the end points. They have discovered so many overlaps between male and female that they are no longer assigning gender, but rather they are using 8 different markers and assigning a "probability" of gender.

The term "hermaphrodite" is not really used much anymore, now we say "intersexed" because it has a much clearer meaning. While you don't address it directly, I would suppose from the rest of your post that you either don't believe that transgendered people exist or that you lump them in with the rest of the "queers" and condemn them as well. I gotta tell ya, Mawg, that I am a transgendered person, I have a fairly normal female brain in a fairly normal male body and it has caused me a huge amount of grief. Fortunately the American Medical Association realizes that this birth defect is real and they have been successfully treating us for more than 35 years. Why haven't you learned about this? Because there is a deeply entrenched religious bigotry in this country that denies our existence and suppresses the dissemination of information about our condition. No, I'm not postulating a conspiracy, it's bigotry pure and simple. A lot of religious people don't like the idea because it makes them feel uncomfortable and conflicts with the Bible in which it says that God made "men" and "women". It usually comes down to the fact that the majority will take faith over truth because it's easier and they don't have to do the research to discover the truth. It's so much safer and more comfortable to sit in the pews and unquestioningly accept what the preacher/Bible/Church/Pope or whoever tells you.

The base line here is ignorance, religious folks have been hating and hurting "queers" for centuries on the say-so of the Bible when in point of fact being homosexual or transgendered is no more an evil lifestyle choice than insanity is demon possession, as the Church claimed. Black skin is not the Mark of Cain, alcoholism is not just "moral turpitude", women have souls (if men do), and there is nothing inherently evil about interracial marriage. All of these idiotic beliefs were "gospel" at one time. All the scientific evidence points towards sexual orientation being an innate quality and homosexuality being just another normal variation that probably has survival value or it would have been bred out of us by now.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

But, Otter, the fun part of this is that while he's arguing with himself HE'S STILL LOSING THE ARGUMENT! I love it. He's like the two-headed man who debated free-silver and refuted himself.

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The apocalypse is coming... we're gonna need more ammo.

while you may accept some wild notion that there are more than 2 genders ( again excepting hermaphrodites)
I do not
I do not accept mumbo jumbo rationalizations and pseudo science by "scientists" who are sympathetic to or interested in legitimizing a false notion that homosexuality is natural and inborn.

there is no such thing as a healthy womans mind born in a male body or vice versa


nowherer have I , in fact nowhere in the word of God , does it say anything about the black race being of Cain- that is some cult which knows nothing of the Word .

in fact I daresay you will find I have never espoused , and the fact of the matter is that list of idiocy you claim was gospel never appeared or appears in the Word of God.

Homosexuality IS in the word of God , in the old and new testaments and it is abomination and unnatural - it is not inbred , or innate
it is not normal and it is not an acceptable alternative lifestyle

all the posts or ramblings by atheistic pro homosexual " intellectuals " has no meaning at all in the issue.

even if I had been so stupid as to be an atheist I would think homosexuality unnatural and unacceptable. It is so obviously so that anyone who is honest sees it as such.

those who twist the meanings of things and try to make what is good bad and bad good are the children of deception and as such serve the devil's purpose.

not all blacks ,or all whites , nor all of any race or creed , nor even all homosexuals, since I know a lot who will acknowledge that their choice of behavior is unnatural- and I can at least respect the fact that THEY are honest about it.


I do not listen to what the preachers opinion is , I will never listen to any other opinion that that of the Creator of the universe.

no mere human opinion matters


I have not been suggesting nor do I think we should harm or persecute homosexuals , but neither should we reward them with some legitimacy or " minority status " because of their CHOICE of behavior.

certainly not on my dime.

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I just neutered the cat , now he is a Liberal

Perhaps if you just clamp your hands over your ears, squeeze your eyes shut, and yell "nyah nyah I can't hear you" all the things that you don't like will go away.

That's the equivalent of what you're doing here.

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Whan they come, Ah sall staun mah grun
Staun mah grun, an be na afraid.
Thochts ae hame tak awa mah fear
Sweat an bluid hide mah veil o tears.

i'm just going to point out that if we are arguing from a Biblical stand point, The Old Testament does talk about homosexuality, but that has been fulfilled by Christ's death and resurrection. In the New Testament Christ says nothing about homosexuality, or even marriage for that matter except to say that divorce is wrong.

So the question becomes is what paul says cuturally relative because homosexuality had a different context then, or is it divine mandate?

just throwing my two cents out there. Personally i don't have a problem with homosexuals getting married as long as their is no law saying it's violation of their rights for a church to say no. Give them the freedom to get married, but if a church has a problem with it also give the church the freedom to say no.

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent."
-John Calvin

Mawg, yes The Bible calls homosexuality an abomination. My question to you therefore is why do you not hold the eating of shellfish, or wearing polyester in the same contempt as you do homosexuality? Excuse me for being cynical of people who quote The Bible. If you're going to quote it then fine ... quote ALL of it; not just the selective parts that reinforce your preexisting prejudice.

So you're saying that you have an open line to God himself/herself/itself? You say that you will not listen to a preachers opinion and that the only opinion that matters is the world of God. The Bible was written by man. The Vatican who writes Church law (and who routinely change it to suit) is written by man. Dogmatic law is actually written by man. I'm interested to know how you manage to communicate with God and bypass humans when it comes to listening to religious opinion?

firstly

the law was not fulfilled , the blood ordnances were
all the laws are still in effect

or did the 10 commandments become void because of Christ? nope

he himself said that he came not to change even one jot or tittle of the law

but to fulfill the ordnances so we would be able to claim a grace salvation instead of being judged ( by God ) on our inability to abide by the law.

as to the new testament ,
reread Romans and Corinthians and come back when you know the new testament.

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I just neutered the cat , now he is a Liberal

I do not eat pork or shellfish or wear mixed weave clothing , I follow the law as best I am able and rely on grace for salvation.

so I walk the walk as well as talk the talk.




sorry but the original greek and hebrew and aramaic manuscripts were not writen by or ordered by the catholic Church and do , in fact greatly pre-date it .

Man did not write the Word of God , God dictated it through the apostles , and various prophets.

I speak to God everyday ,He answers through the happenings of the world , it isnt always what I want to hear but he does answer .
A preachers opinion or teaching are easy to spot as valid or not in whether they agree with the Word of God or not .

if they do not then they are meaningless , if they do ,he was inspired by the Creator, it is all very simple.

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I just neutered the cat , now he is a Liberal

All of the laws are still intact?

Leviticus included?

__________________
Whan they come, Ah sall staun mah grun
Staun mah grun, an be na afraid.
Thochts ae hame tak awa mah fear
Sweat an bluid hide mah veil o tears.

Or I can do exactly what I said , not believe the BS being offered as proof of something which is a lie.
Just because you and others believe it doesnt make it so or mean I have to be gullible as well.

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I just neutered the cat , now he is a Liberal