What would be nice is a number of prominent dems (and anti war reps.) and the media, said- “hey, we didn’t want to be in this position but we are, if the president has this one last plan to try to bring about a victory, then we are going to get behind it..we know how we got here and who is responsible ..we can Watergate this later, if this is what we are going to do, as he is the c in c and like it or not it is at this point his prerogative, then lets do it all out and as one, lets give the troops and the pres. what they/he need to make this plan work ..if at the end of the day it doesn’t, we’ll deal with it and we would in a worse position then than if we didn’t support it….if it fails? its on him….and we all , the amercian people both ouses know it....BUT, it won’t be due to our lack of support…we want it to succeed, so one more push is what we are going to give it…..so lets get it done and go get ‘em"…that reeks of statemanship as opposed to partisanship....

surely whats to argue in that? Can't we all pull in one dirction, at least on this one last throw of the dice, instead of racing to get on the "I told you so' bandwagon"? Just once ....pull in one direction.......moral, vocal, even if you don't mean it....and if Hilary were smart she'd shut the hell up and let it take its course and guess what? she has been silent....hummmmmm....she aint no dummy.

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Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

H. L. Mencken


Mortgage Backed Security survivor

GREAT POST SO TRUE

Yah, like we did in Viet Nam Huh???

This aint vietnam, the difficulties are similiar, but the stakes are much higher. If we leave do you honestly believe it wil be just "business as usual?" Your dem president is elected democrats can finnally push through thier agenda and terrorism will cease to exist?

He's gotten the benefit of the doubt and complete funding support from congress for THREE YEARS and every. single. plan has unequivocally failed. And its not like he's failing in small ways, the country is in a CIVIL friggin War, despite the fiction the Secretary of State wants you to believe. What's particularly irksome is that this new strategy was tried at the end of the Vietnam war and it didn't work. You can not solve an ethnic conflict between two groups who have been at war for CENTURIES with 20,000 troops. You can't even make a dent in it. The left TOLD the Administration and the neo cons that a Civil War between Sunni and Shia would be the inevitable result of the invasion. People like Seymour Hersch, Amy Goodman and Naomi Klein wrote article after article about the way the reconstruction efforts were lining the pockets of corporations and not actually securing the country. It's been documented and people like you called them traitors and turn coats for putting the TRUTH about this way out there long before the mainstream media was willing to go there. But now that you're finally admitting they were right you want to give the President MORE time? Sorry bub this is a democracy and the people sent a resounding message on this issue in November. Suck it up, your side was wrong from the get go and this continue rally behind the flag crap just doesn't work anymore. Loving America is NOT loving the failed Iraq project.

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Yesterday, John McCain actually said that if he’s president he’ll take on, and I quote, 'the old boys’ network in Washington.' I’m not making this up. This is somebody been in Congress for 26 years, who put seven of the most powerful Washington lobbyists in charge of his campaign. And now he tells us that he’s the one who’s gonna take on the old boys' network,” he said. “In the McCain campaign that’s called a staff meeting!- Obama, 9/17/2008

I would much rather have Bush' " surge/escalation/augmentation " plan be DOA,
than the unknown brave # of those 21,500 additional forces who will end up as such.

This is just another Vietnam comparison, only turned on its' head.
The battle cry then was if we leave, the domino theory will have the region fall to Communism country by country.
It didn't happen.

Bush in Iraq thinks that if we force Democracy upon one country, the rest will fall to Democracy, as well.
It won't happen, 20,000 + troops notwithstanding.

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Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life

As long as we are throwing out Vietnam comparisions as the reasoning behind present day decisions shall we also remember the communist purges of South Vietnam and the 'Killing Fields' of Cambodia when we consider withdrawl.

If we leave now they'll follow us home is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. They can't even get planes off the ground in Iraq for crying out loud.

A bloodletting if we leave? What's stopping them from that now? Do you believe that America is actually holding things together in Iraq? That the insurgents are simply waiting us out? Iraq is going in the direction that it's going to go in irregardless of America's actions one way or the other. Adding 20,000 troops is a drop in the bucket. It's meaningless and it defies logic and common sense.

Look how the Iraqis did away with Saddam Hussein and that's what Bush has exacerbated in Iraq; Shia vengeance at being supressed all this time. The worst of these people are animals who will never give in to democracy. It just irks me that many Americans still believe that democracy is the best way to go, when clearly it isn't for some nations. No choice is a very good one in Iraq. No choice can be easy to live with. No choice is going to make anyone that happy. But the choice to bring our brave men and women home at least guarantees America that many young people will have a chance for better lives, instead of wasting it in Iraq. It is clear now that every single American who dies over there is dying for a mistake. Dying for nothing. Get used to it, this can't be won.

So if only we pull our soldiers out of Iraq the world will be gum dropps and puppy dogs. We will all be able to sleep warma and cumffy under our blankets safe and secure because we no longer have soldiers in Iraq.

I think your views of the reprecussions of an American withdrawl from Iraq are increadibly optomistic. The possible dangers that may be represented by an American 'redeployment' are to numerous to count (boost in Al queda recruiting, Iranian dominance of the Middle East, Threats to global oil supplies, etc etc etc).

You say this can't be won, the truth is we don't know yet. American national security is important enough that I'm willing to give the president my support in his attempts to win it.

Robert had the President been up front with us, and his administration not seemed so inept in the war planning at this point even though I was against the war I might be inclined to agree with you. The fact of the matter is what is happening now is he is paying for the fact that a large majority of us simply do not believe him or those around him any longer. Did he lie about the WMD's? I do not know for sure, but what I do know is if there was any doubt at all, and there seems to have been plenty, he should have waited until some of those doubts were set aside one way or the other. Was Husein a direct threat to the US. As long as the sanctions were in place no he wasn't in my view, and apperantly in a lot of the views of my fellow citizens. Now had the French and Russians been successful in getting the sanctions removed that would have been a different story. Did the statements made at the outset of the war by Cheney and Rumsfeld about how the war would proceed and how we would be recieved show any understanding of the actual political situation on the ground? Not in my view and apperantly the views of an increasing number of Americans. Once Hussein was gone did it appear as if there was any plan at all? Not in my view and the President never really even tried to convey the fact that they had one except for victory in Iraq, which frankly after a while was seen as just a bullshit political statement. I mean how many times did we hear "stay the course" before they realized that phrase was actually coming accross as "we don't have a clue and we are going to keep on not having a clue"?

Even in the last statement from the new Sec Def where he complained that Americans felt Bush and Co. didn't listen to the Generals at the beginning when they were calling for more troops so we should listen now that they are calling for more troops rang hollow. Why? BEcasue they got rid of Abizaid and Pace who were not calling for troop increases and replaced them with people who were calling for the planned increase. Given the history of this administration the perception is that they did this to be able to say they were honoring the wishes of the Generals in the field, when in fact this is what Bush wanted to do even before the ISG report came out. One wonders why Bush even bothered commissioning the ISG becasue the perception now is he never intended on following any of their ideas, so again they tried to play politics with the public. And that is perhaps the biggest problem Bush faces now. It is the perception that all he did during this entire time was hand out political slogans to the electorate to get it to do what it wanted. At first it was successful, hell it is still successful with some on this board and in the population in geneneral. But for most of us the perception is that this is an incompetent administration, at least when it comes to Iraq, and therefor why should we send more troops when we still do not see any real plan. I know the standard response is they can't tell us the plan because of national security, everything with this administration is national security, but if you really think we need to be there because of national security then one has to decide which is more important, the support of the electorate or secrecy.

It is often said that perception is reality, and in this case it is true. It no longer matters if it can be proved that Bush lied or didn't lie to get us into this war, it is the perception of more and more that was the case. Perhaps a little more openenss with his own citizens and less "can't tell anyone anything because of national seciurity" and this wouldn't have happened. But the fact is it has happened. Bush will never again be able to garner the support of even close to a majority of the citizens of the US for almost anything he does. We are essentially politically anyway back in the middle 1970's when almost all Americans did not believe anything coming from Whitehouse.

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The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure... - Klaatu

I haven't discarded an single iota of this nonsense because It shows just how unrealistic your position is.

My Dad had a saying about pounding sand in a rathole. (It doesn't work because the rat just digs it out again). If someone takes three shots at me and misses. I am not about to stand still while he tries again.

All you plan will do is get more Americans killed.

True there will be a lot of Iraqis killed if we leave, but that will happen anyway, whether we leave in six months, or six years. and if we wait for six years, the deaths will be added, the six years of daily killings and the resulting blood bath.

THAT is what is wrong with your plan.

I don't see where the stakes are higher. in both cases wee were wrong, As for your question.

!. It will never be "Business as usual." It is too late Bush has made certain of that.

2. It would be OUR Dem president (if such is elected) I am not a Democrat

3. Regardless of party, perhaps a new Administration would cease promoting terrorism by it's actions as the present one is doing.

The same thing will happen in Iraq regardless of when we leave.

Ok, thats all fine and dandy, but it doesn't address the current situation. I hear alot of complaining about the start of the war, but that doesn't change the fact that a pullout of American soldiers will be a diseaster for the middle east and possibly directly effect US national security.

Can I borrow your crystal ball so I can pick out next weeks lottery numbers.