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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2009
CYDdharta's Avatar
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Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
An Abrams has plenty of horsepower, and can reach a speed of 42 MPH easily.


Abrams

At that speed, you can easily die from concussion.

Easily?!? Hardly. That’s the MAX speed it can reach. No vehicle reaches its max speed easily.

How does one get a concussion when there’s nothing other than a padded shock-absorbing head rest for the Driver's Integrated Display to hit? As I said before, if you have anything to back up your claim, please share it.
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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2009
President

 
Member Since: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 18,005

United_States     Russian

Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
So you are suggesting that national energy policy should be based on the need to transport bricks?
How about on the need to transport anything having a lot of weight and volume? And how about letting the people decide if they want to conserve energy that THEY BUY or not.
Quote:
If $10/gallon reduces the number of trucks on the road, it will be because local producers gain a pricing advantage, and because long haul freight transport goes by rail again.
And if you raise the price to $500,000,000, you'll likely cut it down to nothing. The problem is that you're shitting on people who run a good, honest business transporting supplies.
Quote:
$10/gallon doesn't have much impact on the cost of a building, the major cost of bricks in place will still be brick masons.
It will have an impact on the balance of payments, it will have an impact on CO2 production, and it will have an impact on National Security.

Maybe instead of blindly repeating the talking points of the Party of No, you might want to think the problem through.
Says the guy who can't think of any uses for trucks besides brick transportation.
Quote:
Why should petroleum use be subsidized by income taxes and sales taxes?
If you are the president of Texaco, getting your product subsidized by income tax payers makes sense.
It shouldn't be subsidized by them. I don't have a particular problem with the cost of gasoline going up due to market forces, even if I find it unpleasant.
Quote:
But you are a taxpayer, not an oil executive, so why are you clamoring to subsidize petroleum use?
Where did I clamor to subsidize petroleum use?
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2009
President

 
Member Since: Jul 2005
Location: USA
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United_States     Russian

Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
Because you put every one else at risk as well.
If everyone had smaller cars, everyone would then be safer.
You put people at risk when you drive anything at all. Should we force everyone to walk? What if I don't feel safe with my neighbor walking on public property? Do I handcuff him to his fence?
Quote:
In fact, is all cars were smaller, then there would be far fewer accident all together, because there would be less traffic density and more ability to avoid accidents.
[/quote]And you plan to implement this...how? Who will move the bricks and the petroleum? Smart cars and helicopters?[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
I don't know whether it is better to mandate smaller cars or to raise the gas tax as a penalty.
All are stupid.
Quote:
Either way, commercial drivers will need protection, whether it is a waiver or a tax rebate, because there will always be a need for large commercial carriers.
Once again, stupid. You create a shitload more paperwork where there is already quite a bit and create a special class of drivers that have government privileges.
Quote:
What we need to reduce is like when OJ drove his V8, 4x4 Bronco alone, on dry, flat, pavement, because it was exempt from CAFE ratings.
And I think you should stop wasting electricity and bandwidth on Internet posts. Turn off your computer and cancel your ISP subscription immediately.
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2009
CYDdharta's Avatar
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Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maat222 View Post
Smaller cars automatically have a better strength to weight ratio, so don't need as much structural steel in relation to over all weight.

It is the same reason why an ant can carry 100 times its body weight, and we can't.
Smaller is automatically stronger.

Perhaps you'd like to run your theory by the National Research Council. During their studies, they've found conventional wisdom holds true; that bigger and heavier vehicles are safer;

Quote:
The potential problem for motor vehicle safety is the vehicle mass and size vary inversely not only with fuel economy, but also with risk of crash injuries. When a heavy vehicle strikes an object, it is more likely to move or deform the object than is a light vehicle. Therefore the heavier vehicle’s occupants decelerate less rapidly and are less likely to be injured. Decreasing mass means that the downsized vehicle’s occupants experience higher forces in collisions with other vehicles. Vehicle size is also important. Larger crush zones outside the occupant compartment increase the distance over which the vehicle and its restrained occupants are decelerated. Larger interiors mean more space for restraint systems to effectively prevent hard contact between the occupant’s bodies and the structures of the vehicle. There is also an empirical relationship, historically, between vehicle mass/size and rollover injury likelihood.



In short, even after considering effects on all road users and after adjusting the results for a number of factors known to correlate with both fatal crash risk and vehicle usage patterns, the downsizing and downweighting of the vehicle fleet that occurred during the 1970s and early 1980s still appear to have imposed a substantial safety penalty in terms of lost lives and additional injuries. The typical statistical relationship between injuries and fatalities in the NHTSA’s accident data suggests that these changes in the fleet were responsible for an additional 13,000 to 26,000 incapacitating injuries and 97,000 to 195,000 total injuries in 1993.
Effectiveness and Impact of Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) Standards
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2009
ApolloMike's Avatar
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Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by D11011101 View Post
I always find people talking about the fuel efficiency of their cars most fascinating. The average MPG gallon efficiency between 1980 and 2004 has barely changed. In 24 years of improvements in technology and our cars still get the same horrible gas mileage. The only conspiracy theory that I give any credence to is oil company control over fuel efficiency. They can't make any money if people have fuel efficient cars.

D11011101

Reference: Average Gas Mileage Relatively Flat Between 1980 and 2004

You need to read more than the headline of your own source. It states specifically that people were buying bigger vehicles, and waiting in traffic longer, which brought the average down. Not that the economy of the vehicles stayed flat. The technology is there, and has increased fuel economy. What was the average fuel economy of a Chevrolet 1500 truck in 1980? About 13mpg. That would mean that the increase over the last twenty-six years is about 50%. That does not seem too bad to me. Considering when you look at the vehicles produced in 1980 that are still made today (or 2006 when my truck was made), they all seem to have increased by about that same 50% in economy.
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2009
Secretary of Defense

 
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Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Simple solution:
Double the price of gas threw Tax
Reduce income tax by 1% or offer universal healthcare

That will solve the problem.. Already works in Europe...

Certain Industries don't pay gas tax.. Agriculture....
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2009
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Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyTed View Post
Simple solution:
Double the price of gas threw Tax
Reduce income tax by 1% or offer universal healthcare

That will solve the problem...
What problem?
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2009
County Council Member

 
Member Since: Mar 2009
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Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamInTheSouth View Post
What problem?
There are no problems.
Everything on the planet is fine.
Please return to your normal spending cycle.
This was only a test.
If this had been an actual problem......

D11011101
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2009
President

 
Member Since: Jul 2005
Location: USA
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United_States     Russian

Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamInTheSouth View Post
What problem?
The problem is we don't have enough poor people to demand government support. We need to tax them into submission so that they ask for government services.
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2009
Angry American's Avatar
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Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Hehehehe... but we go to campgrounds.

I still go tent-camping from time to time, but I find that, as I get older, I enjoy some of the creature comforts a travel trailer offers...
I hear ya.
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2009
Angry American's Avatar
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Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

We need to find a way to mass produce cars and trucks out of carbon fiber as cheaply as steel.
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"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

-Thomas Jefferson
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2009
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Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slon View Post
...........
Where did I clamor to subsidize petroleum use?
Every time you argue against a higher gas tax.
There are thousands of bridges and tens of thousands of miles of roadway that need repair in this country right now. If the gas tax was high enough that money would be there, instead we borrow the money to subsidize the mechanism for burning petroleum.

There are ways to make cities "greener", and they don't require breakthrough technology.
New York City is the greenest place in America, the citizens of NYC have the smallest carbon footprint, the lowest automobile use, and the lowest heating costs in America. They walk more, use mass transit more and drive less.
If every citizen in the US used as much energy as a NYC resident, we wouldn't need foreign oil.
Because NYC was built before the automobile culture took over.
Now at one time when the US was a petroleum producing country, it may have made sense to promote the use of a domestic resource, but we are still promoting the use of petroleum, even though we need to borrow money to buy it from foreign sources.
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2009
CYDdharta's Avatar
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Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry American View Post
We need to find a way to mass produce cars and trucks out of carbon fiber as cheaply as steel.


That kinda reminds me of Ford's soybean car of 1941.

Soybean Car
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2009
President

 
Member Since: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 18,005

United_States     Russian

Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

Quote:
Originally Posted by goober View Post
Every time you argue against a higher gas tax.
There are thousands of bridges and tens of thousands of miles of roadway that need repair in this country right now. If the gas tax was high enough that money would be there, instead we borrow the money to subsidize the mechanism for burning petroleum.
Not taxing something specifically and to an unusually great extent does not equal subsidizing it, goober. You're playing with words.
Quote:
There are ways to make cities "greener", and they don't require breakthrough technology.
New York City is the greenest place in America, the citizens of NYC have the smallest carbon footprint, the lowest automobile use, and the lowest heating costs in America.
Based on what source? I have a hard time believing it since there are probably tiny towns all over America that use very little of, well, everything due to low population density. Are you talking per capita?
Quote:
They walk more, use mass transit more and drive less.
If every citizen in the US used as much energy as a NYC resident, we wouldn't need foreign oil.
NYC is very densely population, with huge buildings at every turn. Of course they can get around walking. EVERYTHING IS SO CLOSE!
Quote:
Because NYC was built before the automobile culture took over.
Now at one time when the US was a petroleum producing country, it may have made sense to promote the use of a domestic resource, but we are still promoting the use of petroleum, even though we need to borrow money to buy it from foreign sources.
I think you're playing with words again. Just because gas users aren't taxed to death, doesn't mean the use of gas is being "promoted."
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  #135 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2009
Secretary of Defense

 
Member Since: Apr 2006
Location: Galway, Ireland
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Re: Obama's CAFE Standards May Put More Lives in Danger

The use of gas doesn't seem to bear it's proper cost. Road usage, Foreign export, fighting of wars/security, Environment..... Therefore is should be taxed accordingly...

Oil is a depleting resource so the government should be protecting the US economy and getting them off a resource which will dramatically increase in price over the next 20 years. It should prepare the US economy for a life of very high gas prices...

Therefore the tax on gas should be raised. Why should the non users of gas have to pay for those lazy spongers of gas when they could just drive more economical vehicles... Exceptions do apply for various industries who use a specially coloured diesel.

This how it works in Europe...
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