Thread: Obama Could Order Treasury to Ignore Debt Limit

Originally Posted by adaher

Which I'd remind everyone to take with a grain of salt, because they never submitted it to the CBO for scoring.

Even without the CBO scoring the Progressive Caucus Budget Proposal is pretty straight forward and it is pretty clear that it comes a lot closer to solving budget problems than the Ryan Plan, which, according to Ryan himself, raises the federal debt by 6 trillion dollars over the next ten years.

http://grijalva.house.gov/uploads/Th...20Analysis.pdf

Here is a good overview of the proposed budget. It is an interesting read, with its emphasis on solving America's problems.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

Even without the CBO scoring the Progressive Caucus Budget Proposal is pretty straight forward and it is pretty clear that it comes a lot closer to solving budget problems than the Ryan Plan, which, according to Ryan himself, raises the federal debt by 6 trillion dollars over the next ten years.

http://grijalva.house.gov/uploads/Th...20Analysis.pdf

Here is a good overview of the proposed budget. It is an interesting read, with its emphasis on solving America's problems.

Here are the basics in that plan.

-1.7 trillion spending public investment
-raise social security taxes
-public health care option
-force pharmaceuticals to lower prices
-raise taxes on medicare providers, waste reforms
-cut defense spending
-raise taxes on the rich
-raise taxes on state borrowing
-raise taxes on corporations, investments
-raise taxes on oil companies

Adding it all up
-1.7 trillion in new spending

-868bn in general cuts
-2.3 trillion in defense cuts
-300bn in health care savings
-856bn in interest payment savings

-2.8 trillion in new income tax
-1.2 trillion in new payroll tax

Now, if I do the math, that about 4 trillion in cuts, 4 trillion in taxes, and 1.7 trillion in spending. These are estimates of course, and theres a couple pages on how they modified all the modeling and baselines, which make the baseline look worse, and their savings look better. They also didnt include tables and graphed everything as percentages of the economy, which means they probably assume a phenomenal economic growth as does every other budget.

If it were true though, it does sound like it cuts deficits more than any other budget except Rand Paul's. Predictably it does it by significantly cutting defense, and raising taxes.

Originally Posted by Commodore

Got anything that doesn't completely destroy the private sector?

In the real world Bush cut taxes and reduced regulation and destroyed the private sector, a private sector that had thrived with higher tax rates.

But that's what really happened, in the United States, on the planet earth.
Your tax plans may have worked well on Krypton, or some other comic book world....

Originally Posted by goober

In the real world Bush cut taxes and reduced regulation and destroyed the private sector, a private sector that had thrived with higher tax rates.

The economy was doing just fine until politically correct lending and liberal energy policies combined to sabotage it.

Originally Posted by goober

there's this
Debt proposals: The courageous Progressive Caucus budget | The Economist

Do not confuse them with facts...

Originally Posted by spotdogg

Do not confuse them with facts...

What facts are those? Has this been submitted as a bill? Endorsed by the party? Analyzed by budget offices to examine its true outcome? I accepted it for the purpose of this thread.

Originally Posted by Commodore

The economy was doing just fine until politically correct lending and liberal energy policies combined to sabotage it.

Is that what happened in Narnia?
Cuz it was nothing like that in the real world.
No wonder you guys have such wack theories, your facts are fiction.

Originally Posted by Commodore

The economy was doing just fine until politically correct lending and liberal energy policies combined to sabotage it.

This could not be any more baseless. The economy's woes are 90% conservative policy and 10% liberal failure to stop it. The right-wing since Reagan has been slowly destroying this country.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

Even without the CBO scoring the Progressive Caucus Budget Proposal is pretty straight forward and it is pretty clear that it comes a lot closer to solving budget problems than the Ryan Plan, which, according to Ryan himself, raises the federal debt by 6 trillion dollars over the next ten years.

http://grijalva.house.gov/uploads/Th...20Analysis.pdf

Here is a good overview of the proposed budget. It is an interesting read, with its emphasis on solving America's problems.

The plan's quality is based on its numbers, which are made up. I'm sorry, that's mean. Estimated. But not with any kind of rigor. These are the numbers the Caucus HOPES would be generated. And if they really believed in those numbers, they would have submitted them for scoring. You can't compare the scored Ryan budget with the pie in the sky Progressive Budget. One has withstood intellectual rigor and been graded using more pessimistic assumptions. The other is just a wish.

It's very possible that the plan does cut the deficit more than the Ryan plan, but in order to believe that you'd have to believe that progressives are decent at estimating revenues from tax increases. Historically, they've failed at that, badly. Revenues always end up being disappointing compared to what they had hoped.

Originally Posted by Sluggo

Just imagine for a moment the impact on the economy, the markets, currency, debt ratings, etc. if it is determined there is no debt limit for our federal government.

You have it ass-backwards.

Most developed nations have no debt limit. The debt limit was a silly law passed decades ago and has been little more than a rhetorical exercise ever since. The Republicans increased it 7 times for Dubya.

The adverse impact on "the economy, the markets, currency, debt ratings, etc." will only come from the GOP being so fanatical about protecting tax cuts for their rich patrons as to put paying current obligations in jeopardy.

As the Republican columnist David Brooks wrote:

Over the past week, Democrats have stopped making concessions. They are coming to the conclusion that if the Republicans are fanatics then they better be fanatics, too.

The struggles of the next few weeks are about what sort of party the G.O.P. is — a normal conservative party or an odd protest movement that has separated itself from normal governance, the normal rules of evidence and the ancient habits of our nation.

If the debt ceiling talks fail, independent voters will see that Democrats were willing to compromise but Republicans were not. If responsible Republicans don’t take control, independents will conclude that Republican fanaticism caused this default. They will conclude that Republicans are not fit to govern.

And they will be right.

Originally Posted by jviehe

What facts are those? Has this been submitted as a bill? Endorsed by the party? Analyzed by budget offices to examine its true outcome? I accepted it for the purpose of this thread.

It was voted on, despite not being scored, which I had thought was a violation of parliamentary procedure, but I guess since it went down in flames, getting only 99 votes in the House, it's academic.

Originally Posted by Dick Martin

Even without the CBO scoring the Progressive Caucus Budget Proposal is pretty straight forward and it is pretty clear that it comes a lot closer to solving budget problems than the Ryan Plan, which, according to Ryan himself, raises the federal debt by 6 trillion dollars over the next ten years.

http://grijalva.house.gov/uploads/Th...20Analysis.pdf

Here is a good overview of the proposed budget. It is an interesting read, with its emphasis on solving America's problems.

I completely agree.

This administration and the progressive caucus are wanting to address fiscal problems that have occured over the last 30 years, particularly under Republican administrations, where Reagan tripled the debt and Bush doubled it.

Yes, this President is not innocent from the spending of those three, what with the really bad policy of extending the Bush tax cuts two more years, but VP Biden has given more than enough to House Republicans and Eric Cantor has been a big cry baby in recent weeks, getting mad at Boehner for talking to the President, being mad at Obama for being Obama, and so on.

It simply doesn't make sense what the Republicans are offering, which is to try to milk blood from a stone in asking the working poor, the unemployed, seniors, and single-moms to bear the brunt of the burden, while asking nothing of the corporate elite in America, while the Democrats are asking not that much of corporate America, just shared sacrifice like everyone else.

Cantor walked out last week on a deal where Republicans were going to get 80% of what they wanted, but of course that still wasn't enough for them.

Where are the strict constitutionalists now, when the 14th Amendment makes it pretty clear that the President can authorize the flow of cash to keep moving because of America's obligations as well as the good faith it has in paying back it's loans?

The stalemate is pretty clear, and it all comes down to Republicans not wanting to give an inch on closing loopholes and cutting subsidies for corporations that won't even feel the loss.

I applaud Boehner in so far as in private, he wants a resolution, but the rest of his idiotic party is showing us all that they're not ready for prime-time. They're not a serious party. America, contrary to Republican beliefs, is not broke; she is simply in debt, but she makes tons of cash, and the Democrats are ready to sign off on a deal that will cut the debt but a few trillion over 10 years. That's a start, and as the economy gets better and America bounces back, the Bush tax cuts expire, and the wars continue to wind down, more cash flow will come even faster. I just got my internets bill; that makes me in debt by about $50 to the cable company. I'm not broke, I have a debt, and since I'm working, I'll pay the debt off. Same thing goes with the country, and we need the adults to step up and get this done because the Republican party is a bunch of non-thinking, melodramatic children on this one.

The US isn't broke so much as liberal ambitions exceed the US's ability to pay for them under any imaginable tax system.