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Secretary of State
The Bush Administration wide receiver--aka ATF gunwalking operation.
ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.[23] With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[24] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][23][25] At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009[26] and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded.
Obama administration Fast and Furious: Fast and Furious was started during the Obama administration-and 2 years after the wide receiver program was stopped by the Bush administration.
ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaOn October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels. The strategy of targeting high-level individuals, which was already ATF policy, would be implemented by Bill Newell, special agent in charge of ATF's Phoenix field division. In order to accomplish it, the office decided to use "gunwalking" as laid out in a January 2010 briefing paper. The tactic of letting guns walk, rather than interdicting them and arresting the buyers, led to controversy within the ATF.[5][32] As the case continued, several members of Group VII, including John Dodson and Olindo Casa, became increasingly upset at the tactic of allowing guns to walk. Their standard Project Gunrunner training was to follow the straw purchasers to the hand-off to the cartel buyers, then arrest both parties and seize the guns. They watched guns being bought illegally and stashed on a daily basis, while their supervisors, including David Voth and Hope MacAllister, prevented the agents from intervening.[3]Responding to the disagreements, Voth wrote an email in March 2010: "I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumors, or other adolescent behavior. I don’t know what all the issues are but we are all adults, we are all professionals, and we have an exciting opportunity to use the biggest tool in our law enforcement tool box. If you don’t think this is fun you are in the wrong line of work – period!”[3][33] By June 2010, suspects had purchased 1,608 firearms at a cost of over US $1 million at Phoenix-area gun shops. At that time, the ATF was also aware of 179 of those weapons being found at crime scenes in Mexico, and 130 in the United States.[8] As guns traced to Fast and Furious began turning up at violent crime scenes in Mexico, ATF agents stationed there also voiced opposition.[3]On the evening of December 14, 2010, U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry and others were patrolling Peck Canyon, Santa Cruz County, Arizona, 11 miles from the Mexican border. The group came across five suspected illegal immigrants. When they fired non-lethal beanbag guns, the suspects responded with their own weapons, leading to a firefight.Agent Terry was shot and killed; four of the suspects were arrested and two AK-pattern rifles were found nearby. The rifles were traced to Fast and Furious within hours of the shooting, but the bullet that killed Terry was too badly damaged to be linked to either gun.[3After hearing of the incident, Agent Dodson reached out to ATF headquarters, ATF's chief counsel, the ATF ethics section and the Justice Department's Office of the Inspector General, none of whom immediately responded. He and other agents then contacted Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa (R–IA), ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, who would become a major figure in the investigation of "gunwalking." At the same time, information began leaking to various bloggers and Web sites.[3] 34]On January 25, 2011, U.S. Attorney Burke announced the first details of the case to become officially public, marking the end of Operation Fast and Furious. At a news conference in Phoenix, he reported a 53-count indictment of 20 suspects for buying hundreds of guns intended for illegal export between September 2009 and December 2010. Newell, who was at the conference, called Fast and Furious a "phenomenal case," while denying that guns had been deliberately allowed to walk into Mexico.[3][24] Altogether, 2,020 firearms were bought by straw purchasers during Fast and Furious.[3] These included AK-47 variants, Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles, .38 caliber revolvers, and FN Five-sevens.[34] As of October 20, 2011, 389 had been recovered in the US and 276 had been recovered in Mexico. The rest remained on the streets, unaccounted for.[15] Most of the guns went to the Sinaloa Cartel, while others made their way to El Teo and La Familia.[2][25]
Why would the Obama administration under Eric Holder enact Fast and Furious--when they knew that wide receiver aka ATF gunwalking was halted in 2007- (under the Bush administration)-because it was a failed program? There had to be another reason for this--and the only rational conclusion is that by delivering semi-automatic weapons to Mexican drug cartels--the Obama administration could point to the violence and death in Mexico to ban the sale of semi-automatic weapons in the United States. Henceforth--the cover up--along with an 18 month congressional investigation into Fast and Furious -and Obama issuing executive privilege on documents that have been subpoenaed by the congressional investigation into Fast and Furious-which then lead to congress holding Eric Holder (Attorney General of the United States and head of the ATF) in contempt.
Governor
but bush did it
Concerned Citizen
I mean after all, the program seems to have been running off and on under various names for quite some time.
Boehner is always harping "Mr. President, were are the jobs?"
We're in an economic quagmire so why does the Speaker allow this nonsense?
Secretary of State
Originally Posted by uncleray
The POINT of this thread is we currently have DEMOCRATS blaming Bush for Fast and Furious. Bush stopped wide receiver in 2007, because it was a failed program. The Obama administration started a new program called Fast and Furious in 2009--with full knowledge that wide receiver had failed and that guns were lost in Mexico over it.
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Secretary of State
Here is Shiela Jackson blaming Bush.The POINT of this thread is we currently have DEMOCRATS blaming Bush for Fast and Furious. Bush stopped wide receiver in 2007, because it was a failed program. The Obama administration started a new program called Fast and Furious in 2009--with full knowledge that wide receiver had failed.
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Vice President
Well, this does seem suspicious, doesn't it, IF we have ALL of the facts. And frankly, I just do not trust Wilkipedia in having all of the facts.
Supposedly indictments regarding the DOJ program that took place during pres bush's came out during the obama admin. Why would this happen when the DOJ was doing something similiar, but without the gps tracking devices being used in fast and furious?
If this was a grand plan to ban the sales of semi auto weapons in the US, HOW could they have pulled this off, given that fast and furious could not be kept secret? So, the conspiracy theory is really weak here. I don't think that was ever some plan made by the obama admin, because it would not work.
We just need to decriminalize drugs, treat the harder drugs as a medical problem, and you would end the mexican mafia overnight. This stupid war on drugs, which is a war on americans is way too costly to keep up. When you war on your own people, for such stupid reasons, as we did with alcohol you waste too much tax payer dollars, break apart too many families, and in the end unless you turn america in a full blown police state, you may as well piss into the wind. What we need is some damn intelligence, instead of doing the same thing over and over, while expecting different results.
For the people that base their argument for this war on morality, fuck em. Their sense of morality they wish to impose upon everyone is complete stupidity. But hell, lets spend a few more trillion in times when we cannot afford it, and take those trillions from social security and other safety nets.
One way to end this stupidity, this insanity is for every american to grow one pot plant in their front yards. What are they gonna do? Lock up every american? We could end this crap if we could get rid of the folks who want to impose their own morality upon others. The human brain is in a bad need to evolve out of this madness. I think if we survive, the brain will evolve at some point in time into a new age of enligtenment and out of the mental dark ages we have lived in for at least 50 thousand years. Of course that will be the end of conservatism, but that would be a wonderful thing.
Last edited by Blue Doggy; 06-22-2012 at 10:26 AM.
"Like every other good thing in this world, leisure and culture have to be paid for. Fortunately, however, it is not the leisured and the cultured who have to pay." Aldous Huxley.
Vice President
Well, this could be a serious problem IF this was done for an ulterior motive in a move to ban semi auto gun sales. I do not believe that, at this point in time.
But this is being used in order to defeat obama and for no other reason. I know it, the pubs know, and everyone should know it. If this were an honest inquiry, with real concern, that would be one thing. But it isn't.
Also, from what I just read online, the bullet that killed the border agent could not be linked to one of these fast and furious guns. Because it was too badly damaged. What if it came from the prior program and not fast and furious? Would that be a game changer? You are damn right it would be. Too bad they could not determine what gun it came from. Where did this idea of it coming from a fast and furious gun? Did the bullet miraculously heal itself so accurate analysis could be done, that was irrefutable?
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I can't stand that woman. She has to come from an illiterate area of this nation.
"Like every other good thing in this world, leisure and culture have to be paid for. Fortunately, however, it is not the leisured and the cultured who have to pay." Aldous Huxley.
Administrator
Absolute hogwash!
This investigation started more than a year ago and the DoJ could have had everything cleared up in a week if they wanted to but they chose to stonewall. Why did they choose to stonewall? Well, most likely because what they were doing was CRIMINAL and BECAUSE PEOPLE GOT KILLED.
The idea that the Fast and Furious investigation is intended to be political shenanigans is obscene and it's an affront to every American who values the rule of law. The 17 Democrats on the Oversight committee should hang their heads in shame for the way they acted in the Holder hearings.
Vice President
So what criminal law did they break, since you called it criminal? Looks to me like the mexican who did the killing is the criminal here. If you do not think this is being used for political reasons, you live in la la land. If it were not a political deal, it would not get 24 hour a day coverage on Fox. I have listened to it non stop all day long! I don't reckon there is any other news going on. Like the turkish fighter shot down by syria, which I have not heard one mention of today on fox news. Hell, they don't have time, as they cover this political story incessantly. They already have holder convicted and in jail, along with obama. And it ain't political? What a load of bullshit.
Perhaps it was one of the guns let out during pres bush's time that killed the border patrol? Of the two guns found, the FBI could not say that the lethal bullet came from either of these guns that were linked to fast and furious. The bullet was too damaged to prove it. All that the FBI could say was that the bullet came from this type of gun. Perhaps the weapon that actually killed the guy was shot from another gun just like the two found. These people bought a helluva number of the same type of guns. And the murder weapon left with the illegals.
All that we factually know is that two guns were left behind. We do not know how many were taken with the fleeing bandits. We cannot tie the bullet to one of the fast and furious guns. We can only say two of those f and f guns were left behind. And of those left behind, the FBI could not prove the bullet came from one of these guns, but only it came from that type of weapon.
If the bullet could have been proven to come from one of the guns let out during bush's time, would we have this circus going on today? Would the repubs have been so concerned. Hell no!
"Like every other good thing in this world, leisure and culture have to be paid for. Fortunately, however, it is not the leisured and the cultured who have to pay." Aldous Huxley.
President
Minor but technically important quibble: FULL auto weapons were delivered to Mexico, not just semi. The rest of your comment is still valid.
I will believe forever that F&F was done solely to undermine the 2nd Amendment and create excuses for further restricting the rights of Americans. The fact that Obama has claimed executive privilege does nothing to dispel that belief.
Guns don't kill people. Dads with beautiful daughters kill people.
President
You say that like it somehow means something.
SJL is, without question, the stupidest human being (and I use that term generously) to ever pollute the planet with her existence. On a good day she is a cancer on the soul of humanity. I am utterly disgusted and humiliated that reprehensible cunt not only lives in my state but somehow manages to pay off enough people to get elected to a position where she nominally represents it. If banishment were possible any longer, I'm convinced Texans would have done so to that crotch years ago.
What she believes is of less than no importance. Frankly, her blaming Bush for anything virtually assures it wasn't Bush's fault.
Guns don't kill people. Dads with beautiful daughters kill people.
President
18th Congressional District of Texas. AKA, Houston's 3rd Ward - basically Houston's version of Compton or Harlem.
Guns don't kill people. Dads with beautiful daughters kill people.
Secretary of State
Then you must be able to "explain" after an 18 month investigation into F & F--Obama claims executive privilege--on documents that Holder ADMITTED would be very embarrassing to this administration. Executive privilege only covers the PRESIDENT--not his staff nor Eric Holder. So either Obama knew about F & F and lied about it--or he is using executive privilege to cover Eric Holders ASS. Nixon tried the same--and it didn't work for him in the Watergate cover up.
Secretary of State
I agree.
Secretary of State
Did you read the Wikipedia article--it was 3 ATF agents that actually reached Issa to report this. They tried several other sources that would not listen to them. It was Issa that finally paid attention to what they were saying. And we didn't know about wide receiver until after the program was stopped--it didn't make headline news either. Furthermore--you should know by now--that the main stream media and all the msn's continually PROTECT Barack Obama and his administration. They have just now started talking about F & F because Holder is being held in contempt by congress.Well, this does seem suspicious, doesn't it, IF we have ALL of the facts. And frankly, I just do not trust Wilkipedia in having all of the facts.
Supposedly indictments regarding the DOJ program that took place during pres bush's came out during the obama admin. Why would this happen when the DOJ was doing something similiar, but without the gps tracking devices being used in fast and furious?
If this was a grand plan to ban the sales of semi auto weapons in the US, HOW could they have pulled this off, given that fast and furious could not be kept secret? So, the conspiracy theory is really weak here. I don't think that was ever some plan made by the obama admin, because it would not work.
We just need to decriminalize drugs, treat the harder drugs as a medical problem, and you would end the mexican mafia overnight. This stupid war on drugs, which is a war on americans is way too costly to keep up. When you war on your own people, for such stupid reasons, as we did with alcohol you waste too much tax payer dollars, break apart too many families, and in the end unless you turn america in a full blown police state, you may as well piss into the wind. What we need is some damn intelligence, instead of doing the same thing over and over, while expecting different results.
For the people that base their argument for this war on morality, fuck em. Their sense of morality they wish to impose upon everyone is complete stupidity. But hell, lets spend a few more trillion in times when we cannot afford it, and take those trillions from social security and other safety nets.
One way to end this stupidity, this insanity is for every american to grow one pot plant in their front yards. What are they gonna do? Lock up every american? We could end this crap if we could get rid of the folks who want to impose their own morality upon others. The human brain is in a bad need to evolve out of this madness. I think if we survive, the brain will evolve at some point in time into a new age of enligtenment and out of the mental dark ages we have lived in for at least 50 thousand years. Of course that will be the end of conservatism, but that would be a wonderful thing.
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How in the heck does a woman like this get elected in TEXAS of all places?
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