Thread: "If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen."

Originally Posted by HonorsDaddy

Other than the space program and the USSR's achievements, there's nothing true about your statement.

The idea that Massachusetts is the biggest incubator of new business is absurd on its face.

And to deny the importance of what Goob mentioned, is cutting your nose off in spite of the face.

You guys want up, without down, here, without there, yes without no. This isn't how it works, no matter how hard you strain to make it so.

The entire universe is interdependent. To deny reality is the first step one takes when embracing your very peculiar ideology. And it is very peculiar, in that it does not reside in the actuality. It's very foundation is delusion.

Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1

Like the corporations with negative tax rates?

No, like the individuals who Obama say didnt built their business, yet pay the majority of income tax. Corporations are irrelevant. They generate wealth for individuals who are then taxed. They dont pay tax themselves, their customers do.

Originally Posted by goober

This is getting ridiculous.

Sure is. For example:

Originally Posted by goober

For years states tried to emulate what happens in Massachusetts, the biggest incubator of new businesses in the US.

Patent bullshit.

In 2008 (the last year for which the US SBA has published data), there were ~33,000 new businesses started in Massachusetts.
In that same timeframe:
~165,000 new businesses opened in California
~43,000 new businesses opened in North Carolina
~42,000 new businesses opened in Virginia
~125,000 new businesses opened in Florida

And those are just the four states I happened to look at. You can find state by state figures here: http://archive.sba.gov/advo/research/profiles/09fl.pdf

In fact, in 2008, ~1,429,000 businesses opened in the US.
Massachusetts accounted for ~2% of the new businesses opened in the US.

"Biggest incubator of new businesses in the US"? Sorry, but as usual the facts refute your made-up numbers.

Inc magazine did a piece on "20 cool incubators in the US" - not one is in MA. (20 Cool Business Incubators | Inc.com)
Forbes did a report on the top 10 business incubators in the US - not one is in MA. (Top Startup Incubators And Accelerators: Y Combinator Tops With $7.8 Billion In Value - Forbes)

Looks like MA might be in the running for most inflated reputation as a business incubator, but that's about it.

Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1

You're probably right on the construction claim, but in engineering and medicine people are more liberal than conservative.

...

Not so much. I'm an engineer, and all my colleges are solidly conservative. My wife's in the medical field and all her friends and colleges are solidly GOP. Our State university that puts out all the technical degrees is well known for conservative values and always has been, while its sister University geared towards liberal arts is solidly liberal.

I know 3 men who back in 1972, decided to do janitorial work on their own, instead of working for low wages, for someone else.

So they started their own janitorial company, and their employee force consisted of just them. 3 brothers. They made a little more money than when they worked for someone else, but were not living the american success story. They were getting by, and did not have to work for anyone but their customers.

Then they placed a bid for a gov't contract here locally. A big Air Force base. And they got it!!! In a very short time, all 3 had their own office, and spent their time in getting new customers, from all over this State, because the cash flow and profits from the gov't contract allowed them to expand, buy new equipment and so on. They never mopped a floor again. They took vacations to hunt out west, and all had big homes, new cars and were living the american dream. That gov't contract, plus themselves brought the Dream. If not for that gov't contract, they would still be mopping floors today, for themselves, with few workers to do that for em.

They eventually lost the gov't contract. But because of that contract they had the funds to expand to the entire state, and no longer needed that contract to live the Dream. The difference between them remaining a small company with themselves doing the labor, and a large business with many employees was the US Gov't contract.

These men will all tell you today the role of gov't in their own success. But they are honest men. And are still grateful of that gov't contract so many decades ago. I wonder what they think of the right wing attacks on what obama said? Probably they think as many of us do. It was stupidity at its finest.

Originally Posted by Disillusioned_1

You're probably right on the construction claim, but in engineering and medicine people are more liberal than conservative.

I take it you don't know anyone in either field?

Like another poster here, I work in the engineering field, my wife in the medical field. Both fields are near universally conservative. There are exceptions, but they are rare.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

I know 3 men who back in 1972, decided to do janitorial work on their own, instead of working for low wages, for someone else.

So they started their own janitorial company, and their employee force consisted of just them. 3 brothers. They made a little more money than when they worked for someone else, but were not living the american success story. They were getting by, and did not have to work for anyone but their customers.

Then they placed a bid for a gov't contract here locally. A big Air Force base. And they got it!!! In a very short time, all 3 had their own office, and spent their time in getting new customers, from all over this State, because the cash flow and profits from the gov't contract allowed them to expand, buy new equipment and so on. They never mopped a floor again. They took vacations to hunt out west, and all had big homes, new cars and were living the american dream. That gov't contract, plus themselves brought the Dream. If not for that gov't contract, they would still be mopping floors today, for themselves, with few workers to do that for em.

They eventually lost the gov't contract. But because of that contract they had the funds to expand to the entire state, and no longer needed that contract to live the Dream. The difference between them remaining a small company with themselves doing the labor, and a large business with many employees was the US Gov't contract.

These men will all tell you today the role of gov't in their own success. But they are honest men. And are still grateful of that gov't contract so many decades ago. I wonder what they think of the right wing attacks on what obama said? Probably they think as many of us do. It was stupidity at its finest.

Getting government as a customer is not nearly the same as government causing their business to grow.

Originally Posted by HonorsDaddy

Getting government as a customer is not nearly the same as government causing their business to grow.

The gov't contract expanded their business in size damn near instantly. If you were a warm body, who had two arms and would work mopping floors, waxing, buffing, cleaning, you did not have to wait for a few weeks to hear back on whether you were hired or not. I remember them telling me if he guy could start to work that day, he was a new employee.

The money from this contract is what allowed them to expand, while stopping doing the work themselves. Instead of mopping floors they managed the business, and got to work seeking new contracts all over the state, since they had time to do that now. Otherwise they would have still been doing local businesses, and probably still doing the manual labor themselves.

If gov't did not cause their own business to grow, what did? They will tell you that gov't contract was the only thing that allowed them to expand. It provided the money to expand. I know its a tough pill to swallow for the right, but swallow it anyways. It isn't polite to spit stuff out you don't want to swallow on another person's clean floor.

Taxpayer money, helped in a big way for these 3 men to live the american dream. And these 3 men came from poverty. From one of the poorest families in my area. I should know, my uncle married one of their sisters. A rags to riches story, of sorts, that one gov't contract helped to create. I am sure there are many stories like this across time and this great land.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

The gov't contract expanded their business in size damn near instantly. If you were a warm body, who had two arms and would work mopping floors, waxing, buffing, cleaning, you did not have to wait for a few weeks to hear back on whether you were hired or not. I remember them telling me if he guy could start to work that day, he was a new employee.

The money from this contract is what allowed them to expand, while stopping doing the work themselves. Instead of mopping floors they managed the business, and got to work seeking new contracts all over the state, since they had time to do that now. Otherwise they would have still been doing local businesses, and probably still doing the manual labor themselves.

If gov't did not cause their own business to grow, what did? They will tell you that gov't contract was the only thing that allowed them to expand. It provided the money to expand. I know its a tough pill to swallow for the right, but swallow it anyways. It isn't polite to spit stuff out you don't want to swallow on another person's clean floor.

Taxpayer money, helped in a big way for these 3 men to live the american dream. And these 3 men came from poverty. From one of the poorest families in my area. I should know, my uncle married one of their sisters. A rags to riches story, of sorts, that one gov't contract helped to create. I am sure there are many stories like this across time and this great land.

Not the same thing. Had they obtained a similar contract from the private sector the same thing would have happened.

I'm happy for them - really I am. However, getting a government contract is not the same thing as government being responsible for their business success.

What made their business a success was their work and their efforts. The fact that a government contract was their largest client is incidental. Had they not made the effort and delivered on their promises, they would be out of business.

Originally Posted by HonorsDaddy

That's a hell of a fantasy you've got going on there.

I'm sorry you're incapable of considering a life without a government to make decisions for you. I, and many others, have no such need.

One thing you're right about - Large egos have a problem with giving credit to others. If you'll direct your gaze to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, you may notice one of the larger egos in existence. I say "may" because he seems to be out playing golf or raising money more than he is home.

You are just like the guy who buys his meat at the local butcher, but doesn't want to think about the man who killed and dressed that beef. Oh, you might give credit to the butcher who cut it up, but no credit to the chain in place that got the meat to your table. And no credit to the gov't who tried to insure you did not die from the bacteria in your fav steak. Or the gov't that had a large part in creating the roads that got you beef from farm to your store.

You are like the audence of the magician who is fooled to believe he really is floating, and not suspended by wires. You think the magician is actually doing all of this unassisted. And you don't want you delusions questioned, because you paid to go and see that magic show!

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by HonorsDaddy

Not the same thing. Had they obtained a similar contract from the private sector the same thing would have happened.

I'm happy for them - really I am. However, getting a government contract is not the same thing as government being responsible for their business success.

What made their business a success was their work and their efforts. The fact that a government contract was their largest client is incidental. Had they not made the effort and delivered on their promises, they would be out of business.

There are no contracts here or in many places the size of a fucking large air base for gods sake. Wiggle wiggle wiggle.

Since the government HAS NO MONEY OF THEIR OWN they didn't aid anyone in growing their business, the taxpayers who funded every government program that aided them did. Just as without a business there are no employees, without taxpayers there is no government.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

You are just like the guy who buys his meat at the local butcher, but doesn't want to think about the man who killed and dressed that beef. Oh, you might give credit to the butcher who cut it up, but no credit to the chain in place that got the meat to your table. And no credit to the gov't who tried to insure you did not die from the bacteria in your fav steak. Or the gov't that had a large part in creating the roads that got you beef from farm to your store.

Nope - not even close. BTW - no, i do not credit the USDA inspector with shit. There's no bacteria in my food because the store doesn't want the liability. Trust me - THAT goes a lot further than the fear of running afoul of a USDA inspector who merely reviews paperwork when it comes to keeping my meat safe to eat.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

You are like the audence of the magician who is fooled to believe he really is floating, and not suspended by wires. You think the magician is actually doing all of this unassisted. And you don't want you delusions questioned, because you paid to go and see that magic show!

Stop telling me who and what I am and believe. I've been very clear and your analogies are absurd.

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

There are no contracts here or in many places the size of a fucking large air base for gods sake. Wiggle wiggle wiggle.

Doesn't matter. The end result it, it was not the GOVERNMENT which caused his business to grow. It was his efforts.

Had the man not gone after the contract in the first place, he would not have received it. Had he not met the obligations he would have never been paid. Do you really not understand this, or are you trying to find some way, not matter how absurd, to credit the government with his success?

Originally Posted by Blue Doggy

The gov't contract expanded their business in size damn near instantly. If you were a warm body, who had two arms and would work mopping floors, waxing, buffing, cleaning, you did not have to wait for a few weeks to hear back on whether you were hired or not. I remember them telling me if he guy could start to work that day, he was a new employee.

The money from this contract is what allowed them to expand, while stopping doing the work themselves. Instead of mopping floors they managed the business, and got to work seeking new contracts all over the state, since they had time to do that now. Otherwise they would have still been doing local businesses, and probably still doing the manual labor themselves.

If gov't did not cause their own business to grow, what did? They will tell you that gov't contract was the only thing that allowed them to expand. It provided the money to expand. I know its a tough pill to swallow for the right, but swallow it anyways. It isn't polite to spit stuff out you don't want to swallow on another person's clean floor.

Taxpayer money, helped in a big way for these 3 men to live the american dream. And these 3 men came from poverty. From one of the poorest families in my area. I should know, my uncle married one of their sisters. A rags to riches story, of sorts, that one gov't contract helped to create. I am sure there are many stories like this across time and this great land.

Would the results have been substantively different if a similar size contract was awarded from a private institution?