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Britain tells EU to sod off

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  • Britain tells EU to sod off

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
    Britain votes to leave EU in historic divorce: BBC

    Britain has voted to leave the European Union, the BBC said based on voter tallies from Thursday's referendum, an outcome that would set the country on an uncertain path and deal the largest setback to European efforts to forge greater unity since World War Two.

    World financial markets dived as counting from 304 of 382 areas showed a 51.5/48.5 split for leaving. Sterling suffered its biggest one-day fall of 9.4 percent against the dollar on market fears the decision will hit investment in the world's 5th largest economy, raise questions over London's role as a global financial capital, and usher in months of political limbo.

    The euro slumped nearly four percent against the dollar on concerns a Brexit vote would do wider economic and political damage to what would become a 27-member union. Investors poured into safe haven assets including gold, and the yen surged.

    In an early mark of international concern, Japan's top currency diplomat Masatsugu Asakawa said he would consult with Finance Minister Taro Aso on how to respond to the market moves, describing the foreign exchange moves as very rough.

    Yet there was euphoria among Britain's eurosceptic forces, claiming a victory they styled as a protest against British political leaders, big business and foreign leaders including Barack Obama who had urged Britain to stay in the bloc.

    "Dare to dream that the dawn is breaking on an independent United Kingdom," said Nigel Farage, leader of the eurosceptic UK Independence Party.

    "If the predictions are right, this will be a victory for real people, a victory for ordinary people, a victory for decent people...Let June 23 go down in our history as our independence day."

    He called the EU a "doomed project".
    Brussels just learns a painful but powerful lesson, as taught by Henry David Thoreau, "That government is best which governs least".

    I suspect other EU states will threaten similar moves, which will force serious, meaningful reforms on the EU. The question is, will Europe act quickly enough to avert the divisions that forces to the east seek to drive, in order to divide... and conquer.

    Last edited by Commodore; 06-23-2016, 09:47 PM.

  • #2
    "Brussels" is not a governement, dear. It is a vehicle for intergovernemental cooperation. And obviously membership is voluntarily ( as this referendum has demonstrated), yet Britain will still have to sort out its relations with the bloc, its access to european markets ( considered vital even by most Brexiters), its cooperation on security, police, justice,, and many other fields ( including millions of british citizens living in the EU for whom life looks set to become complicated and that were denied a vote if they had been abroad for fifteen years or more). The Brexiters will figure that there is a hangover after the party and that stirring up emotion is far easier than getting the promised better terms without any of the cost out of their favourite bogeyman, "Brussels".
    It is furthermore not "Britain" that has told the EU to sod off, it is England. Scots have demonstrated a clear majority pro-EU and so have the Northern Irish. Scotland has already indicated prior to the vote that it would rather preserve its EU membership ( if necessary as an independent state) than its membership of the UK. And irish leaders are on the record for predicting a new push for the islands reunification should a new border divide it ( The northern irish peace process was made possible not least by both parties membership of the EU).
    That means the most likely first casualty of the referendum is not "Brussels", but the UK itself that for the first time in centuries has a very real chance to fall part.
    As far as other alleged breakaway states are concerned : Dont bet on it. The british (english) vote was as much a domestic anti-establishment vote and "Brussels" was partially wrongly conflated with that. And british "euroscepticism" is of a very british kind. In the EEC, that later became the EU, Britain had joined a project ( for largely economic motives) that it never fully embraced ( as far as integration was/is concerned), and that was dominated by very "continental", often franco-german, ideas. For the latter, the project was/is born out of the ashes of WW II and cooperation and integration, also between former arch-enemies the way forward for the peoples of Europe, that are both related as well as diverse.
    It is not as if Britain couldnt have built alliances for many of its positions in the EU, but that would have required more engagement than the british electorate was willing to support ( or was considered to). That is why Britain, rightly or wrongly is not the point, chose to sit on the fence on most major european integration steps, such as Schengen ( the zone of borderless travel), or the Euro. Making a habit out of sitting on the fence is a letigimate choice, it also comes at a price however : That the others may make decisions without you in the room, even if they affect you. One such example is Britains cherished finance industry : That the city of London is going to loose its trade in Euros is now pretty much inevitable ( Dublin, Luxembourg and Frankfurt are already standing in line). And if the issue of Common Market access is not very speedily resolved the effect is even likely to be more devastating, also for other industries ( cars f.e.). Another one is refugees : France has made clear that stopping and detaining refugees / illegals claiming Britain as their destination rests on Britain beeing an EU member. Which would be a rather interesting outcome of a campaign based to a considerable extent on rejection of immigration.
    Brits (at least far too many Brits) have on the other hand never really grasped why the EU for Continental Europeans is about far more than just about the economy, and the quality of british media coverage on european issues has often been poor. That is also why british commentators have misjudged the Euro-crisis from the beginning. How many times was the single currency claimed to be breaking up ? This time really ?
    A choice either way had to be made at some point. It is regrettable though that it had to be in the form of this campaign, full of hate rethoric, oversimplifications and untruths. It is now up to the likes of Londons ex-Mayor Johnson ( who has likened the EU to the Nazis) to repair ties with the continent that Britain needs, since David Cameron has (rightly) announced his resignation. Good luck with that.
    Prediction : The core EU will stick together and the Eurozone as well, since in spite of evident problems the desire to make it work is greater than to retreat in cuddly national homes. Germany will, in the absence of Britain, inevitably emerge as the dominating power at least for the time beeing, a position that Germany never wanted ( and they know well why they prefer to act multilaterally, which will create problems of its own. Nations that could at some point eye "renegotiation" of certain terms might be Denmark and Sweden, yet slamming the door is rather unthinkable.
    I would be far more worried about the UK itself, we will muddle through ( I will be in Luxembourg today, where many meetings will take place).

    P: S : There is also another prediction : That after the party and the hangover, when the hooray and flag waving has died down, both sides will sooner or later come up with a new trade deal that the Brexiters will try to sell as a magnificient success, even though it leaves pretty much everything in place. probably glossed over by some face-saving rethorical cosmetics (like freedom of movement for people and payments in the EU budget). That Britain will have lost representation in EU institutions and therefore gained nothing might be further on the backpages.

    The pound is in freefall, stockmarkets around the world have crashed, german carmakers BMW ( Mini, Rolls Royce) and Volkswagen ( Bentley) have confirmed to have plans to move out of the UK in case of a Brexit vote, Toyota, Honda and Nissan have indicated to overthink investions as well, Spain has said that now it wants control over Gibraltar, the irish question is back and Scots openly eye breaking away from the UK ( the polls this time leave little room for doubt). Germany has announced a governement emergency summit with France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and Italy in Berlin tomorrow ( the founding nations of the EU), and the European parliament looks set to pass a vote on stripping Britains EU commissioner ( Lord Hill/finance) off his Office. Immediately. Just to mention a few points. Good Job, Brexiters...
    Last edited by Voland; 06-24-2016, 04:02 AM.


    • #3
      It is a good job the people of a nation have a right to retain their nation as they see it.


      • #4
        Yes, they do, and noone in the EU has questioned that. Wether it is also a good service for Britains place in Europe and the world, for british jobs and Business ( the economic plan of the Brexiters is so far their secret), for Britains young Generation ( it appears that 75 % or more under 25 voted to stay in the EU while those over 65 voted majority against) , and also overall stability in Europe ( markets appear to go crazy, and old issues like Gibraltar, Scotland and Northern Ireland appear back on the agenda), not to mention that this partially nasty campaign has broken a lot of goodwill in other european capitals ( particularly statements like Boris Johnsons "EU/Nazi" slur) stands on a different sheet of paper.
        Last edited by Voland; 06-24-2016, 04:43 AM.


        • #5
          The heads of the European Council, the European Parliament, and the European Commission, Donald Tusk ( Poland), Martin Schulz ( Germany), and Jean-Claude Juncker ( Luxembourg) along with dutch PM Mark Rutte ( who holds the rotating EU presidency), have all called on the UK to exit as quickly as possible, to not unnecessarily extend the period of uncertainty. The leaders of the Brexit campaign however have claimed not to be in a hurry to "brexit". Which leads to suspicions in Europe that in fact they are after another deal with Europe.......


          • #6
            There have to be a lot of deals with Europe as they are untangling from current trade agreements at many levels. This is going to take several months if not a couple years.


            • #7

              So, is there any relation to what is going on here in America, with this election cycle, and what the Brits voted to do? Does the exit have something to do with immigration, loss of sovereignty?

              What is the driving force behind the vote going this way? I will say this though, and that is, it looks like the Brits the people, still have a greater voice in what happens in the UK. I am not so sure about the US voters having that power.


              • #8
                Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                So, is there any relation to what is going on here in America, with this election cycle, and what the Brits voted to do? Does the exit have something to do with immigration, loss of sovereignty?
                Yes and no. Sovereignty is a big part of it, but the economic philosophy behind it is very different than the knee jerk reaction we see from the "leaders" of both parties in the US, Watch the Brexit movie I linked above. It's long, but it is worth it to understand the long term consequences of the kind of meddling that so many are clamoring for.


                • #9
                  'Explosive shock' as Britain votes to leave EU, Cameron quits

                  Britain has voted to leave the European Union, forcing the resignation of Prime Minister David Cameron and dealing the biggest blow to the European project of greater unity since World War Two.

                  Global financial markets plunged on Friday as results from a referendum showed a 52-48 percent victory for the campaign to leave a bloc Britain joined more than 40 years ago.

                  The pound fell as much as 10 percent against the dollar to touch levels last seen in 1985, on fears the decision could hit investment in the world's fifth-largest economy, threaten London's role as a global financial capital and usher in months of political uncertainty. The euro slid 3 percent.

                  World stocks saw more than $2 trillion wiped off their value, with indices across Europe heading for their sharpest one-day drops ever. Britain's big banks took a $100 billion battering, with Lloyds, Barclays and RBS plunging as much as 30 percent at one point.

                  The United Kingdom itself could now break apart, with the leader of Scotland - where nearly two-thirds of voters wanted to stay in the EU - saying a new referendum on independence from the rest of Britain was "highly likely".

                  An emotional Cameron, who led the "Remain" campaign to defeat, losing the gamble he took when he called the referendum three years ago, said he would leave office by October.

                  "The British people have made the very clear decision to take a different path and as such I think the country requires fresh leadership to take it in this direction," he said in a televised address outside his residence.

                  "I do not think it would be right for me to be the captain that steers our country to its next destination," he added, choking back tears before walking back through 10 Downing Street's black door with his arm around his wife Samantha.
                  This worship of the currency markets is bizarre. It's as if people really thing that by simply checking a box on a piece of paper, and sticking that paper in a box, 10% of the country just spontaneously exploded or something. It's that very attitude of centralized control that got us here to begin with.


                  • #10
                    The current reaction from markets is idiotic as it is simply the vote that has happened, everything is still legally the same today as it was yesterday. Getting out now is just greedy short term minded fools making investors with patience and fortitude wealthier.


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                      The current reaction from markets is idiotic as it is simply the vote that has happened, everything is still legally the same today as it was yesterday. Getting out now is just greedy short term minded fools making investors with patience and fortitude wealthier.
                      I don't know about wealthier, but it will certainly have an impact on the spreadsheet they are charging you to watch on your behalf.
                      Last edited by Commodore; 06-24-2016, 09:33 AM.


                      • #12
                        I think it's really a sad day for Europe. Don't want them to leave. With Scotland threatening to leave the UK however, this could be a boomerang.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Shanon View Post
                          I think it's really a sad day for Europe. Don't want them to leave. With Scotland threatening to leave the UK however, this could be a boomerang.
                          What's sad about it? That everyone isn't one big happy bureaucracy anymore?

                          In case anyone was still wondering why Britain did it, the EU was kind enough to provide a reminder today...

                          EU to launch kettle and toaster crackdown after Brexit vote

                          The EU is poised to ban high-powered appliances such as kettles, toasters, hair-dryers within months of Britains referendum vote, despite senior officials admitting the plan has brought them ridicule.

                          The European Commission plans to unveil long-delayed ecodesign restrictions on small household appliances in the autumn. They are expected to ban the most energy-inefficient devices from sale in order to cut carbon emissions.

                          The plans have been ready for many months, but were shelved for fear of undermining the referendum campaign if they were perceived as an assault on the British staples of tea and toast.

                          A sales ban on high-powered vacuum cleaners and inefficient electric ovens in 2014 sparked a public outcry in Britain.

                          EU officials have been instructed to immediately warn their senior managers of any issues in their portfolios that relate to the UK and could boost the Leave campaign were they to become public.

                          The decision to push ahead with the plans soon after the British vote was revealed by Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president, at the weekly College of Commissioners meeting on April 20.

                          Internet routers, hand-dryers, mobile phones and patio jet-washers are also being examined by commission experts as candidates for new ecodesign rules.

                          However, several products may be granted a stay of execution, as officials admitted the plans are a lightning rod for public anger at perceived meddling by Brussels.
                          This particular regulation reminds me of the low flow toilet regulation from a while back here in the US. Designed to save water, it actually required several flushes to remove particularly robust deposits, completely eliminating any water savings. Toasting your toast several times will waste power.

                          Here's a crazy idea, people will buy what works for them, and it's none of Brussels business what that might be.

                          Or, as Monty Python put it...

                          Last edited by Commodore; 06-24-2016, 12:17 PM.


                          • #14
                            The fact that markets all over the world are plummeting, despite the fact that not one single bit of real wealth has been destroyed shows just how far society has deviated from reality. Spreadsheets are not wealth. Speculation does not create or destroy it. Resources and the knowledge to use them are wealth.


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Commodore View Post

                              Yes and no. Sovereignty is a big part of it, but the economic philosophy behind it is very different than the knee jerk reaction we see from the "leaders" of both parties in the US, Watch the Brexit movie I linked above. It's long, but it is worth it to understand the long term consequences of the kind of meddling that so many are clamoring for.
                              The argument from both the labor and conservative voters, is that the flow of cheap labor immigrants into the UK has depressed wages, as the flow into the US has done the same thing. The people being hurt by this flow, and not talking about muslims here, are the people NOT at the top. So, the new Polish plumber who will fix plumbing at half the rates of an English plumber of course will push down wages for plumbers. And it can literally take away the ability for plumbers to prosper by their work. Of course others will say if plumbers do not prosper, make a living wage, then so what? Of course, it is the non plumbers who ask this, not the plumbers. Now include every other job that will be affected by immigrants.

                              The UK is now running trade deficits that they ran right as the empire was collapsing. Trade deficits might be profitable for a certain corporation but it is at the cost to others. Our trade deficits happen because MNCs are exporting from china or mexico, into our markets, and china or mexico is not buying products made here, which we cannot export to mexico or china. So, we run billions in trade deficits, because particular MNCs from America, are making that stuff with cheap labor outside the US. Trade deficits used to be unacceptable, that is, until our MNCs were causing it. LOL. Fact is, trade deficits are still bad for America, and any nation that runs them in such great numbers as we do. But we now allow it to happen, even if it is bad, for corporations who offshore benefit, at the cost to America. So, America is no longer important, corporate profits trumps America. The same can be said for the UK. But the people rebelled. As they are currently rebelling against open borders free trade globalization in America, and across Europe. WHY? Because it is nothing more than the newest scheme from the bankers and those that own big banking and MNCs, to remove the income and wealth from the middle, and take it for themselves. Advancing technology just made it easier, as it served as the RUSE to promote it. But it is nothing more than the age old game that elites always play. If you turn them loose so they can do it, and Reagan began turning them loose along with Thatcher. And for working people in the west it has literally taken away the ability to propser by the work needed for a modern society to operate. And of course it creates new poverty. And inevitably the worse thing any nation can have, social disorder. So you can never turn an economy, or any system that affects the income of the working and middle class to the greed driven self interests of the rich. And we never seem to learn that lesson, once and for all. This is where ideological beliefs based upon a disconnect from reality comes in. A system based upon a failed ideological belief never seems to die out, we never seem to be able to put it in the trash bin of history, because people will still cling to a failed ideological belief. Human nature can be so inducing of ignor-ance.