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Britain tells EU to sod off

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  • #91
    Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
    Can't trick some folks with little things like facts when their minds are made up.
    Indeed. Euroscepticism is running rampant throughout Europe, but the problem "can't possibly" be with Brussels.


    • #92
      It's be a funnier joke if it wasn't historically accurate...

      LONDONAfter Prime Minister Theresa May initiated official proceedings for Great Britains exit from the European Union, sources confirmed Thursday that Queen Elizabeth II has been frantically trying to preserve the nations European alliances by arranging the marriages of her great-grandchildren. With Britain departing the EU, our greatest chance at maintaining strong diplomatic and economic relations with other countries in the region is for Prince George and Princess Charlotte to marry the children of one of Europes other ruling families, said the queen, who had reportedly just gotten off the phone with King Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands to discuss a possible match between 3-year-old Prince George and one of his three daughters. I was hoping to cement Britains trade partnership with Luxembourg by betrothing Charlotte to Prince Sbastien, but the grand duke wouldnt agree to the arrangement, and unfortunately, the King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden refused my offer of a spring wedding at Westminster Abbey between Princess Leonore and Prince George. If I offer control of Gibraltar and an earldom to the groom, Im sure I can arrange for young Charlotte to marry one of Angela Merkels stepsons when she reaches marriageable age. At press time, the queen was relieved to have at least secured a strong alliance with one European ally after she herself agreed to wed 14-year-old Prince Felix of Denmark.


      • #93
        Originally posted by Commodore View Post

        Indeed. Euroscepticism is running rampant throughout Europe, but the problem "can't possibly" be with Brussels.

        That must be why Wilders has won so decisively in the Netherlands....oh, wait...Political events since the Brexit vote should have demonstrated beyond doubt that it is at least risky to draw conclusions for continental Europe. The "Eurosceptics" have been defeated everywhere they stood for election and it is a documentable fact that majorities across the continent support and continue to support EU membership. That is also visible in the united front that the 27 nations have demonstrated on the Brexit negotiations. It may surprise you, but May/Johnson or Trump are not exactly seen as attractive role models. In the elections that still come this year the "eurosceptics" in Germany are a fringe party that may or may not win a couple of seats, but has no chance at all for any political power. Both candidates for the chancellery are clearly pro-EU. In France Le Pen needs over 50 % to win. Literally, not first past the post style. She currently has around half that, and has stood there for months. In all available polls. A referendum on EU membership she would loose, if she would even call it ( since she would need pro-EU voters to win) . Also according to all available polls. Not to mention that she has another problem that makes sweeping political changes rather complicated : Her party currently has 2 MPs. She needs around 300 to govern that she cant grow on trees.
        Doomsday stories may help to sell newspapers, but they wont help you to get the right conclusions on Europe. The EU is going through a rocky period, and it wont emerge unreformed, but it is going to stay. Because 6 %, 13 % or even 25 % arent "the people", they are a minority. That is measurably decreasing ( In the Netherlands Wilders landed his best result in 2010. By the way. And the german AFD was polling around 12-14 % a while ago. Currently it is around 6 / 7 %, that means its support has halved more or less.). Populists are mainly making noise, but at some point reality starts to kick in. Inevitably and even for those putting hopes in them.
        Last edited by Voland; 03-30-2017, 02:03 PM.


        • #94

          Rising tide of euroskepticism could force EU to adopt tough stance on Brexit

          The European Union is expected to have the upper hand when it formally begins Brexit negotiations with British Prime Minister Theresa May as it look to send a message to euroskeptic members of the regional bloc.

          Nine months after the historic Brexit referendum, May will notify the European Council on Wednesday that the U.K. will officially terminate its 44-year old membership with the E.U. The move paves the way for talks on two key sectors: terms of the divorce, which includes residential rights of both citizens and the U.K.'s financial obligations, as well as future economic relations.

          The logistics behind the negotiations have already become a source of tension. The U.K. would like to discuss both the divorce and trade simultaneously whereas the E.U. would rather have sequential talks instead, explained Adriano Bosoni, Stratfor's senior Europe analyst.

          While it's in the union's advantage to ink a deal, especially if it wants to maintains its trade surplus with the U.K., political factors could force the E.U. to adopt a tough stance.

          "At a time when euroskepticism, nationalism and populism is on the rise in many European countries, governments will keep an eye on their domestic situation. They will want to send a message to voters and parties that Brexit is not a painless process," said Bosoni.

          Indeed, a number of political parties in Europe advocate exiting the E.U., including France's National Front, whose candidate Marine Le Pen is one of the top two contenders for presidential elections. Italy's 5- Star Movement is another such faction, and recent opinion polls indicate it may emerge as the largest group in national elections due by early 2018.

          "The Brexit process is important but there are greater threats for the continuity of the euro zone coming from France and Italy," noted Bosoni.

          Indeed, the timing of Article 50 seems to be working against May.

          "This is not the best time because we have elections in Europe," said Horst Geicke, chairman of the European Chamber of Commerce in Hong Kong. If PM May delayed triggering Article 50 by six months, that could have resulted in an easier start to negotiations, he explained.

          "Europe now has to show unity and show that there is a price to pay (for leaving)."


          • #95

            Clueless ? It is clueless to speculate about the EUs position when it has been on the table since last summer, unchanged. Yes, they really mean it. And that 27 nations have unanimously backed it should tell you something. The EU has never offered various degrees of Brexit, "hard", "soft" etc. (that has been exclusively a smoke and mirrors UK debate), it has only ever offered Brexit or no Brexit. And if Brexit, than the departing party wont dictate the terms of its departure and the terms of its future relations with the bloc. That is not a particularly tough stance, that has always been reality, openly communicated and easy to read up, also in English. That parts of the anglophone press and anglophone commentators only appear to realize that now takes "cluelessness" to new heights.
            The leaders of the EU were never going to put the UKs wish list above that of maintaining the integrity of the Single Market or their own electorates. They would prefer an agreement to not having an agreement, but not at any price and nothing they are going to offer will be more beneficial than full membership. That is rather simple political logic, and not a tough stance or "punishment". Even getting such an agreement ( that would not even be the "good deal" that May promises, since that would not pass in the European and various national parliaments), requires considerable compromises--on the part of the UK. Also the EU 27 can walk away from the table and they have identified four potential breaking points (at least) : a) the UK imposing a "hard" inner-irish border b) the UK refusing to settle its financial obligations AS PART of the divorce c) the rights of EU citizens in the UK post-Brexit ( that May refuses to guarantee) d) the UK caught trying to undermine the union and its institutions.
            Oh, and by the way : The italian "5-stars movement" is anti-Euro, it is not anti-EU ( no, that is not the same thing). It is furthermore not nationalist at all and Italians remain overwhelmingly pro-EU. The "five stars" are also currently embroiled in a massive corruption scandal in Rome (they govern the capital), which is, in combination with administrative incompetence on full display rather not going to help electoral chances. But dont let facts spoil the fun.
            And by the way : The finance industry begins relocating business to the EU from the City of London :

            Last edited by Voland; 03-31-2017, 02:50 AM.


            • #96
              Originally posted by Voland View Post
              Clueless ?...
              Yes, clueless.

              You can rattle on about the "hard" and the "soft" and the "good deals" and the "membership benefits" minutia all you want, but it misses the point entirely. It in no way addresses the reason your having this issue to begin with. Why do you think the Brexit passed to being with? Here's a hint: it wasn't because Nigel Farage yelled louder. It was because what he was saying was confirmed in the lives of the people. An electoral majority concluded that the UK's membership in the EU was not benefiting the country, but harming it. And given the way electoral politics work, the number of people experiencing that harm was certainly higher, people simply didn't vote that way out of fear or peer pressure or status quo bias. It is no different than the US presidential election, where the majority of the population has been hurt by "democratic" policy, the bureaucratic lordship of betters ruling the peasants, but simply refused to vote for anyone because the loudest voices declared the opposition a fascist cheeto and had no voice of their own. Thankfully, the Republic (not the republicans, there is a difference) prevailed. This is a phenomenon common throughout the developed world, and is particularly strong in the EU. Now there is a choice in dealing with it, reform, serious reform and a dedication to federalism the made America what it is, or denial, which will only bottle it up and ensure that it explodes at some point in the future.


              • #97
                Originally posted by Commodore View Post

                Yes, clueless.

                You can rattle on about the "hard" and the "soft" and the "good deals" and the "membership benefits" minutia all you want, but it misses the point entirely. It in no way addresses the reason your having this issue to begin with. Why do you think the Brexit passed to being with? Here's a hint: it wasn't because Nigel Farage yelled louder. It was because what he was saying was confirmed in the lives of the people. An electoral majority concluded that the UK's membership in the EU was not benefiting the country, but harming it. And given the way electoral politics work, the number of people experiencing that harm was certainly higher, people simply didn't vote that way out of fear or peer pressure or status quo bias. It is no different than the US presidential election, where the majority of the population has been hurt by "democratic" policy, the bureaucratic lordship of betters ruling the peasants, but simply refused to vote for anyone because the loudest voices declared the opposition a fascist cheeto and had no voice of their own. Thankfully, the Republic (not the republicans, there is a difference) prevailed. This is a phenomenon common throughout the developed world, and is particularly strong in the EU. Now there is a choice in dealing with it, reform, serious reform and a dedication to federalism the made America what it is, or denial, which will only bottle it up and ensure that it explodes at some point in the future.

                You do know the difference between an election and a referendum ? Hint : An election is what the Netherlands had ( where the inhabitants of the Daily Mail/Breitbart echo chamber predicted a Wilders landslide victory, right ? Which tells you all you need to know basically ). In the UK there is a reason why May ( who is an unelected PM, as much as "taking back control is concerned) does not intend to go to the ballots prior to 2020 ( when Brexit is supposed to be irreversible). And why she had to be forced to accept participation of parliament. Not to mention that the referendum is a beautiful example of how NOT to do it. Hint : Reducing a highly complex question to a simple yes/no. And turn it into an plebiscite on a highly unpopular Prime Minister. Oh, yes, and riddled with lies ( those that voted leave based on things like immigration or promises to invest in the NHS will find out to have been conned. Most of these promises have vanished from Brexiters rethoric anyway. For a reason).
                It is also instructive to check out Mays Brexit guidelines. Because the "ambitious deal" that she wants from the EU would pretty much leave everything in place. Minus the rules, the cost and the European Supreme Court as final arbiter of course. ("Our EU policy is having our cake and eating it"/Boris Johnson).
                Brexit means betting the bank on at most half-baked ideas of national grandeur and Britannia rule the waves delusions of the past which regrettably a tiny majority ( less than 2 %) of cast votes went to. But whoever claims that the UK would lead the way for Europe demonstrates total ignorance ( even if he is a US president). And is in for a reality check like parts of the british electorate. That is already on the way.
                The positions, opinions and interests of the Continental Europeans and the inner workings of the EU ( and to understand them) have never been more important for the UK ( and also the US) than now. Regardless how much you deny that. Because it is not the UK that is going to dictate here. Keep dreaming :




                • #98
                  Originally posted by Voland View Post
                  You do know the difference between an election and a referendum ?
                  Way to address the issue.