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Mideast unrest

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  • Mideast unrest

    I wonder what triggered the latest round of violence in the West bank?http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/07/violen...ation-7140083/

  • #2
    Originally posted by redrover View Post
    I wonder what triggered the latest round of violence in the West bank?http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/07/violen...ation-7140083/
    The Palistinians made a big mistake when they turned down what was offered in 1947 by the UN. The Israelis accepted it, they didn't. Too bad. They'll never get a better deal.

    ?


    • #3
      Originally posted by redrover View Post
      I wonder what triggered the latest round of violence in the West bank?http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/07/violen...ation-7140083/
      Must be doing what Clinton and Obama both promised to do but then refused to do once elected. Your boy Chuckie Schumer was all for this decision.

      ?


      • #4
        Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

        Must be doing what Clinton and Obama both promised to do but then refused to do once elected. Your boy Chuckie Schumer was all for this decision.
        Back in 2002 I went to a Town Hall held by Chuckie, He was all in on invading Iraq He said one of the dumbest things I've ever heard a politician say. He said "What if Saddam Hussein gave a nuclear bomb to Osama Bin Laden" Yeah Chuck and what if Cuba gave a nuclear weapon to Mexico? What if you pull your head out of your ass?. I've never been a big supporter since then. I vote for him because what are my options? A republican? I think not.

        ?


        • #5
          Originally posted by redrover View Post
          Back in 2002 I went to a Town Hall held by Chuckie, He was all in on invading Iraq He said one of the dumbest things I've ever heard a politician say. He said "What if Saddam Hussein gave a nuclear bomb to Osama Bin Laden" Yeah Chuck and what if Cuba gave a nuclear weapon to Mexico? What if you pull your head out of your ass?. I've never been a big supporter since then. I vote for him because what are my options? A republican? I think not.
          This makes no sense what you say; "A republican? I think not."

          You can't possibly believe there's any difference today .. between R's and D's - they're all going to blow smoke up your "posterior"

          ?


          • #6
            Saw this this morning:

            "Let me get this straight.
            Syria's got a civil war. Iraq's got a civil war. Lebanon is being slowly digested by Hezbollah. Yemen's got a civil war. ISIS is operating in Egypt. Hamas is doing what Hamas does. The Palestinians are paying people to stab Jews. Libya is butchering Nigerian slaves. (Re-read that one.) Iran is building nukes to go on their missiles. Iran is trying to subvert Bahrain.
            But Trump is going to set the region aflame.
            Right."

            ?


            • #7
              So what's really new ?

              Nothing.

              Muslims are going nuts, killing slaughtering, rioting, chanting about killing slaughtering & rioting...

              So what's new ?

              Nothing.

              Other than finally recognizing the fact that Jerusalem is Israels capitol.

              Muslims go apesh*t - what's new ? They were doing this anyways ! Muslims were going nuts because that's what Muslims do.

              -------------------------------------------

              Weve been living in a delusion by not acknowledging the fact that Jerusalem is Israels capital, said Bolton. Israel is probably the only country in the world where the American embassy is not in the capital city of the country to which our diplomats are accredited. What Trump did was nothing more or nothing less than making Israel the same as every other country where weve got an ambassador.

              John Bolton says President Trumps recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is a very good move that aids the pursuit of peace, does not concern Americas closest Arab allies and tells the world the president will do what he says he will do.

              Bolton said that in the seven decades of the modern Israeli state, its clear where the center of government is. But he added that Trump left room open for the Palestinians to still get some of what they want.

              West Jerusalem has been Israels capital ever since the creation of the new state. Trump was very careful in his statement that putting the embassy in West Jerusalem, where its obviously going to be, doesnt prejudice discussions about the borders of Jerusalem or the borders of Israel itself,

              ..the fate of Jerusalem has been debated since the aftermath of World War II. Originally, the United Nations wanted the city to be under its control and not part of a Jewish state or an Arab state. The Arab nations rejected the deal..

              ...presidents and lawmakers from both parties have overwhelmingly endorsed recognizing Jerusalem as Israels capital for decades.

              So whats changed now?

              Political talk is cheap and theres a lot of cheap talk in Washington. What Trump has done here is throw all of that into perspective. He not only said he was going to do this on the campaign trail. He has actually set it in motion, said Bolton.

              ..it wasnt just cheap talk that delayed this recognition for so long. The U.S. was effectively bullied into never following through on the issue.

              What this has really boiled down to for a long time is the threat of using brute force to intimidate the United States not to acknowledge the reality of where Israels capital is. Unfortunately, I think the lesson has been that the threat works. The intimidation works. We didnt move the embassy to Jerusalem, said Bolton.

              People, whether theyre Palestinians or citizens of other Middle East countries, or people around the world, ask yourselves what violence would do at this point that has any possibility of changing the situation, said Bolton.

              While the Palestinians and other Trump critics fear Wednesdays actions could damage the peace process, Bolton said theres not much of a peace process at the moment.

              The peace process was already in very difficult shape. Honestly, if moving a building from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem ends the peace process, then I have to say it was a pretty delicate snowflake to begin with, said Bolton.

              There are always situations where politicians are playing to their domestic audiences. So this move will be criticized in public. But in private, I think the leaders will be doing everything they can to tamp down the demonstrations and hopefully do what they can to make sure they dont turn violent,


              ..

              http://www.wnd.com/2017/12/bolton-we...in-a-delusion/

              ================================================== ==============

              Trump Cites Truth While Critics Prefer Fiction

              The most exhausting thing about the Middle East except for the bloodshed, poverty, tyranny, etc. is that it refuses to conform to how it's described in the West.

              It's like journalists, diplomats and politicians want to announce a football game, but the players keep insisting on playing rugby. The field looks similar. The scoring isn't all that different. It's just a different game. But don't tell the gang in the booth. They get furious when you point out that the facts don't line up with the commentary.

              Before you can debate whether this was a good move, you must acknowledge one glaring fact that the chatterers want to ignore or downplay: It's true. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The Knesset, Israel's parliament, convenes there. Israelis call it their capital for the same reason they claim two plus two equals four. It's just true.

              What makes the decision controversial is that everyone had agreed to pretend it wasn't the capital in order to protect "the peace process."

              That's another term that doesn't quite correspond with reality. There is no peace process. Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president finishing the 12th year of his four-year term, has refused to meet with the Israelis to discuss anything since early in the Obama administration.

              Part of the blame for that, of course, belongs with Obama, who built an entire foreign policy around what he wanted to be true rather than what was actually going on. Obama sought to distance the U.S. from Israel on the assumption that Israel was the unreasonably stubborn party in the "peace process." That's why, on the way out the door, the Obama administration broke with precedent and opted not to veto a U.N. Security Council resolution declaring East Jerusalem "occupied territory."

              This implied that, as a matter of international law, the Western Wall, and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem itself, really belongs to the Palestinians which is an insane fantasy.

              But denying reality is how this game has long been played. In his speech after Trump's announcement, Abbas talked at great length about Jerusalem's history as a Muslim and Christian city. He made no mention of the fact that it's also a famously Jewish city, having been established as the capital of ancient Israel 1,000 years before Jesus was born.

              Trump called his decision "a recognition of reality," People invested in irreality insist the move will worsen "the Middle East conflict."

              Here, too, we have mislabeling. Whole books are dedicated to the Middle East conflict, as if the Israel-Palestinian issue is the only conflict in the region. Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of dead Syrians or the millions displaced by the civil war there. Tell it to those dying in Yemen, site of a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

              It's been this way for decades. The Palestinians and their Arab patrons insisted to gullible Westerners that the Israel-Palestinian conflict was the source of all the region's problems. Was the Iran-Iraq war, which cost more than a million lives, a fight over Palestinian statehood? What about the Lebanese civil war? Turkey's campaign against the Kurds?

              The only people who bought the idea that the Middle East conflict began and ended with Israel were those guys in the control booth describing the wrong game i.e., Western experts and activists deeply invested in the "peace process."

              In a sense that's understandable. If you've dedicated your entire professional life to a moveable feast that covers your airfare and lodging in Paris or Geneva while you discuss grave matters, it's probably hard not to cling to fictions.

              But those fictions are losing their hold, ironically thanks in large part to the Obama administration. By working on fantasy rather than facts, Obama threw the balance of power in the region heavily in Iran's favor, lifting sanctions and giving Iran hundreds of billions of dollars. He thought the Iranians would join the community of nations or some such twaddle. Instead, they pocketed the money and are now on a surer path to a nuclear bomb.

              As a result of this new reality, the old fictions are a luxury that Iran's regional adversaries can no longer afford. That's why Saudi Arabia, a longtime Palestinian patron, has been moving steadily closer to Israel: because Israel is a more valuable friend in the new Middle East conflict than the Palestinians are or Obama was.


              https://www.newsmax.com/jonahgoldber.../07/id/830603/

              ?


              • #8
                Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post
                So what's really new ?

                Nothing.

                Muslims are going nuts, killing slaughtering, rioting, chanting about killing slaughtering & rioting...

                So what's new ?

                Nothing.

                Other than finally recognizing the fact that Jerusalem is Israels capitol.

                Muslims go apesh*t - what's new ? They were doing this anyways ! Muslims were going nuts because that's what Muslims do.

                -------------------------------------------

                Weve been living in a delusion by not acknowledging the fact that Jerusalem is Israels capital, said Bolton. Israel is probably the only country in the world where the American embassy is not in the capital city of the country to which our diplomats are accredited. What Trump did was nothing more or nothing less than making Israel the same as every other country where weve got an ambassador.

                John Bolton says President Trumps recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is a very good move that aids the pursuit of peace, does not concern Americas closest Arab allies and tells the world the president will do what he says he will do.

                Bolton said that in the seven decades of the modern Israeli state, its clear where the center of government is. But he added that Trump left room open for the Palestinians to still get some of what they want.

                West Jerusalem has been Israels capital ever since the creation of the new state. Trump was very careful in his statement that putting the embassy in West Jerusalem, where its obviously going to be, doesnt prejudice discussions about the borders of Jerusalem or the borders of Israel itself,

                ..the fate of Jerusalem has been debated since the aftermath of World War II. Originally, the United Nations wanted the city to be under its control and not part of a Jewish state or an Arab state. The Arab nations rejected the deal..

                ...presidents and lawmakers from both parties have overwhelmingly endorsed recognizing Jerusalem as Israels capital for decades.

                So whats changed now?

                Political talk is cheap and theres a lot of cheap talk in Washington. What Trump has done here is throw all of that into perspective. He not only said he was going to do this on the campaign trail. He has actually set it in motion, said Bolton.

                ..it wasnt just cheap talk that delayed this recognition for so long. The U.S. was effectively bullied into never following through on the issue.

                What this has really boiled down to for a long time is the threat of using brute force to intimidate the United States not to acknowledge the reality of where Israels capital is. Unfortunately, I think the lesson has been that the threat works. The intimidation works. We didnt move the embassy to Jerusalem, said Bolton.

                People, whether theyre Palestinians or citizens of other Middle East countries, or people around the world, ask yourselves what violence would do at this point that has any possibility of changing the situation, said Bolton.

                While the Palestinians and other Trump critics fear Wednesdays actions could damage the peace process, Bolton said theres not much of a peace process at the moment.

                The peace process was already in very difficult shape. Honestly, if moving a building from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem ends the peace process, then I have to say it was a pretty delicate snowflake to begin with, said Bolton.

                There are always situations where politicians are playing to their domestic audiences. So this move will be criticized in public. But in private, I think the leaders will be doing everything they can to tamp down the demonstrations and hopefully do what they can to make sure they dont turn violent,


                ..

                http://www.wnd.com/2017/12/bolton-we...in-a-delusion/

                ================================================== ==============

                Trump Cites Truth While Critics Prefer Fiction

                The most exhausting thing about the Middle East except for the bloodshed, poverty, tyranny, etc. is that it refuses to conform to how it's described in the West.

                It's like journalists, diplomats and politicians want to announce a football game, but the players keep insisting on playing rugby. The field looks similar. The scoring isn't all that different. It's just a different game. But don't tell the gang in the booth. They get furious when you point out that the facts don't line up with the commentary.

                Before you can debate whether this was a good move, you must acknowledge one glaring fact that the chatterers want to ignore or downplay: It's true. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The Knesset, Israel's parliament, convenes there. Israelis call it their capital for the same reason they claim two plus two equals four. It's just true.

                What makes the decision controversial is that everyone had agreed to pretend it wasn't the capital in order to protect "the peace process."

                That's another term that doesn't quite correspond with reality. There is no peace process. Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president finishing the 12th year of his four-year term, has refused to meet with the Israelis to discuss anything since early in the Obama administration.

                Part of the blame for that, of course, belongs with Obama, who built an entire foreign policy around what he wanted to be true rather than what was actually going on. Obama sought to distance the U.S. from Israel on the assumption that Israel was the unreasonably stubborn party in the "peace process." That's why, on the way out the door, the Obama administration broke with precedent and opted not to veto a U.N. Security Council resolution declaring East Jerusalem "occupied territory."

                This implied that, as a matter of international law, the Western Wall, and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem itself, really belongs to the Palestinians which is an insane fantasy.

                But denying reality is how this game has long been played. In his speech after Trump's announcement, Abbas talked at great length about Jerusalem's history as a Muslim and Christian city. He made no mention of the fact that it's also a famously Jewish city, having been established as the capital of ancient Israel 1,000 years before Jesus was born.

                Trump called his decision "a recognition of reality," People invested in irreality insist the move will worsen "the Middle East conflict."

                Here, too, we have mislabeling. Whole books are dedicated to the Middle East conflict, as if the Israel-Palestinian issue is the only conflict in the region. Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of dead Syrians or the millions displaced by the civil war there. Tell it to those dying in Yemen, site of a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

                It's been this way for decades. The Palestinians and their Arab patrons insisted to gullible Westerners that the Israel-Palestinian conflict was the source of all the region's problems. Was the Iran-Iraq war, which cost more than a million lives, a fight over Palestinian statehood? What about the Lebanese civil war? Turkey's campaign against the Kurds?

                The only people who bought the idea that the Middle East conflict began and ended with Israel were those guys in the control booth describing the wrong game i.e., Western experts and activists deeply invested in the "peace process."

                In a sense that's understandable. If you've dedicated your entire professional life to a moveable feast that covers your airfare and lodging in Paris or Geneva while you discuss grave matters, it's probably hard not to cling to fictions.

                But those fictions are losing their hold, ironically thanks in large part to the Obama administration. By working on fantasy rather than facts, Obama threw the balance of power in the region heavily in Iran's favor, lifting sanctions and giving Iran hundreds of billions of dollars. He thought the Iranians would join the community of nations or some such twaddle. Instead, they pocketed the money and are now on a surer path to a nuclear bomb.

                As a result of this new reality, the old fictions are a luxury that Iran's regional adversaries can no longer afford. That's why Saudi Arabia, a longtime Palestinian patron, has been moving steadily closer to Israel: because Israel is a more valuable friend in the new Middle East conflict than the Palestinians are or Obama was.


                https://www.newsmax.com/jonahgoldber.../07/id/830603/
                When Americans start dying because of this move.Whose fault will it be Obama's or Clinton's?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by redrover View Post
                  When Americans start dying because of this move.Whose fault will it be Obama's or Clinton's?
                  What "move" is that ? No one's moving...

                  You're not a fan of reading, that's easy to see LOL

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                    What "move" is that ? No one's moving...

                    You're not a fan of reading, that's easy to see LOL
                    When US diplomats start biting the dust there won't be any Benghazi style investigations.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by redrover View Post
                      When US diplomats start biting the dust there won't be any Benghazi style investigations.
                      Would there need to be ?

                      It's not as if no one would know who did it. There would be no reason for anyone to lie about it either . . .

                      ..why would there need to be "any Benghazi style investigations" ?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                        Would there need to be ?

                        It's not as if no one would know who did it. There would be no reason for anyone to lie about it either . . .

                        ..why would there need to be "any Benghazi style investigations" ?
                        The only reason Trump did this despite advice from advisors who know something about the region was to throw a bone to big donors like Sheldon Adelson and mega church charlatans like John Hagee. I understand you don't have time to read many books but I WONDER IF YOU HAVE READ THE lEFT Behind series?https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/israel/...salem-decision

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by redrover View Post
                          The only reason Trump did this despite advice from advisors who know something about the region was to throw a bone to big donors like Sheldon Adelson and mega church charlatans like John Hagee. I understand you don't have time to read many books but I WONDER IF YOU HAVE READ THE lEFT Behind series?https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/israel/...salem-decision
                          So it couldn't be that Jerusalem is Israels capital, and always has been ?

                          It couldn't be that in the seven decades of the modern Israeli state, its clear where the center of government is - Jerusalem ?

                          It couldn't be that West Jerusalem has been Israels capital ever since the creation of the new state ?

                          It couldn't be that presidents and lawmakers from both parties have overwhelmingly endorsed recognizing Jerusalem as Israels capital for decades, so finally we're doing what should have been done long ago ?

                          It couldn't be that The U.S. has been bullied into never following through on this issue to acknowledge the reality of where Israels capital is ?

                          It couldn't be that Jerusalem actually IS the capital of Israel, that Israel's parliament, convenes there. That Israelis call it their capital anyways.

                          That the decision is controversial, is only because everyone agreed to pretend that it wasn't the capital in order to protect "the peace process." Which has always been ridiculous fantasy.

                          It couldn't be that this decision is only a recognition of reality ?

                          No, you want us to believe that the president did this only to "throw a bone to big donors like Sheldon Adelson and mega church charlatans like John Hagee."

                          Many presidents have promised to move the embassy and declare Jerusalem as the eternal capital, but they have promised without performing.

                          Now it's being done ! ....What should have been done long ago !

                          I've read many books and still do read. I'd suggest you do the same.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                            So it couldn't be that Jerusalem is Israels capital, and always has been ?

                            It couldn't be that in the seven decades of the modern Israeli state, its clear where the center of government is - Jerusalem ?

                            It couldn't be that West Jerusalem has been Israels capital ever since the creation of the new state ?

                            It couldn't be that presidents and lawmakers from both parties have overwhelmingly endorsed recognizing Jerusalem as Israels capital for decades, so finally we're doing what should have been done long ago ?

                            It couldn't be that The U.S. has been bullied into never following through on this issue to acknowledge the reality of where Israels capital is ?

                            It couldn't be that Jerusalem actually IS the capital of Israel, that Israel's parliament, convenes there. That Israelis call it their capital anyways.

                            That the decision is controversial, is only because everyone agreed to pretend that it wasn't the capital in order to protect "the peace process." Which has always been ridiculous fantasy.

                            It couldn't be that this decision is only a recognition of reality ?

                            No, you want us to believe that the president did this only to "throw a bone to big donors like Sheldon Adelson and mega church charlatans like John Hagee."

                            Many presidents have promised to move the embassy and declare Jerusalem as the eternal capital, but they have promised without performing.

                            Now it's being done ! ....What should have been done long ago !

                            I've read many books and still do read. I'd suggest you do the same.
                            Rover's just mad that Trump kept his promise unlike Clinton and Obama. All of the Dems who are criticizing him for if voted for it years ago before Trump was President.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

                              Rover's just mad that Trump kept his promise unlike Clinton and Obama. All of the Dems who are criticizing him for if voted for it years ago before Trump was President.
                              I don't know how many years ago that doesn't mean it's a good idea now.Personally I don't think it was ever a good idea.Unlike you I don't feel duty bound to endorse everything my party does. For example when Clinton and Schumer voted for authorizing Bush to start his war I let them know in no uncertain terms i was unhappy with them.

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