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Another school shooting

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  • #61
    Originally posted by redrover View Post
    I agree with a guy I heard this morning on the Sunday talk shows. He said blaming this on mental health is a red herring. Not to say that more shouldn't be done but you have Trump cutting funds for mental health. I think the problem in the prevailing gun culture. I don't know for sure but I will bet all the school shooters come from families that have guns in the home. We know for a fact that that was the case in Sandy Hook. I haven't see many cases where the mass murderer used a crock pot to bash in their victims heads but let's not rule it out. butThat would truly would be a crazy approach to mass murder.
    We could also say that the problem is actually the prevailing liberal ANTI-gun culture.

    After-all, it's why so many kids are easy to target and kill at schools - being gun free zones, meaning easy kill areas.
    You can definitely kill more, if you know there will be no armed response on site !... a major attraction to those who want to kill as many as possible as quickly as possible !!

    Fact;
    If there had been someone responsibly armed at all of these school events, we would have fewer deaths of children !

    Fact; Liberals will never admit to any wrong-doing for convincing America to allow this "gun free zone" idea to take hold and cause increased #'s of dead kids.

    ?


    • #62
      Originally posted by redrover View Post

      They haven't committed a mass murder yet but I'm still willing to bet the next school shooter will come from a household that has guns. Somewhere between 32 an 42% of households have guns.https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/polit...ica/index.html
      OMD has a point; since 40 people could hypothetically invade a school and injure or murder 40 other people using only 40 sharpened sticks, it is useless to further regulate guns or who has access to guns. Instead, more prayers and moral guidance is needed. This will reduce mayhem caused by everything, ranging from sharpened sticks to firearms.

      On a less sarcastic note, I'm all for prayers and moral guidance. But that will work only if we keep certain types of crazy from using firearms. I realize this will be extremely difficult to do, as we have so many people -citizens to public officials- who resist that idea. They seem to believe that those with severe mental illness will respond better to prayer than psychological treatment and legal restriction from using firearms.

      ?


      • #63
        Originally posted by radcentr View Post
        OMD has a point; since 40 people could hypothetically invade a school and injure or murder 40 other people using only 40 sharpened sticks, it is useless to further regulate guns or who has access to guns. Instead, more prayers and moral guidance is needed. This will reduce mayhem caused by everything, ranging from sharpened sticks to firearms.

        On a less sarcastic note, I'm all for prayers and moral guidance. But that will work only if we keep certain types of crazy from using firearms. I realize this will be extremely difficult to do, as we have so many people -citizens to public officials- who resist that idea. They seem to believe that those with severe mental illness will respond better to prayer than psychological treatment and legal restriction from using firearms.
        Not entirely true.

        I don't think people who are dangerous, insane, deranged, whatever should be able to go and buy guns. I just don't.

        Even so, is making a law or more laws or more restrictions the answer ? I very much question that it is, because look at what happened in Florida just a few days ago !

        This young man had the cops called on him so many times, in such a short period of time. He had been reported as dangerous to the FBI....

        Law enforcement, laws, govt and regulations, the FBI - none of it prevented this !

        This is why I think the strongest argument is for having someone armed at schools as a first line of defense. Making more laws and regulations and background checks etc....

        ... may make us all feel wonderful and safe BUT THEY ACCOMPLISH NOTHING ! They definitely don't make our kids safer.

        ?


        • #64
          Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

          Not entirely true.

          I don't think people who are dangerous, insane, deranged, whatever should be able to go and buy guns. I just don't.

          Even so, is making a law or more laws or more restrictions the answer ? I very much question that it is, because look at what happened in Florida just a few days ago !

          This young man had the cops called on him so many times, in such a short period of time. He had been reported as dangerous to the FBI....

          Law enforcement, laws, govt and regulations, the FBI - none of it prevented this !

          This is why I think the strongest argument is for having someone armed at schools as a first line of defense. Making more laws and regulations and background checks etc....

          ... may make us all feel wonderful and safe BUT THEY ACCOMPLISH NOTHING ! They definitely don't make our kids safer.
          Make fewer laws, then, and allow police to force psychological evaluation and adjudication of incompetence if needed. Go deep on this issue, and it just might come down to incompetence of law enforcement and restriction on the police to initiate medical steps with the mentally unstable who want to use firearms. It seems you only want to address incompetence by law enforcement.

          Your solution is too little, too late. You are asking for more security in schools (they'll need body armor and firearms. Really?) Then you want them to just train and wait until the deranged show up to shoot up a school. No police options to prevent, no change in how all states must react to control the deranged and their access to firearms. Is that your position?

          ?


          • #65
            Originally posted by radcentr View Post
            Make fewer laws, then, and allow police to force psychological evaluation and adjudication of incompetence if needed. Go deep on this issue, and it just might come down to incompetence of law enforcement and restriction on the police to initiate medical steps with the mentally unstable who want to use firearms. It seems you only want to address incompetence by law enforcement.

            Your solution is too little, too late. You are asking for more security in schools (they'll need body armor and firearms. Really?) Then you want them to just train and wait until the deranged show up to shoot up a school. No police options to prevent, no change in how all states must react to control the deranged and their access to firearms. Is that your position?
            Are we talking about locking people up before they commit a crime?I'm not sure how well that would go over.

            ?


            • #66
              Originally posted by radcentr View Post
              Make fewer laws, then, and allow police to force psychological evaluation and adjudication of incompetence if needed.
              More laws do nothing is what I said. We've been playing the "more law" game for quite awhile, where did the schools are "gun free zones" idea come from ? Someone thought that would be a great law - it WAS, if you wanted more children killed, great success if that's your thrill !

              Originally posted by radcentr View Post
              Go deep on this issue, and it just might come down to incompetence of law enforcement and restriction on the police to initiate medical steps with the mentally unstable who want to use firearms. It seems you only want to address incompetence by law enforcement.
              Law enforcement takes time to get to any location. Enough time for an armed lunatic to kill a lot of kids in a "gun free zone," great stuff if your into killing kids.

              Law enforcement branches such as the FBI have demonstrated their incompetence on many fronts lately - this being the latest.

              As far as I know police or other law enforcement officers are unable to initiate medical steps for anybody, they went into law not medicine. CPR etc maybe but beyond that ??... Not so sure... Doctor officer ?

              Originally posted by radcentr View Post
              Your solution is too little, too late. You are asking for more security in schools (they'll need body armor and firearms. Really?) Then you want them to just train and wait until the deranged show up to shoot up a school. No police options to prevent, no change in how all states must react to control the deranged and their access to firearms. Is that your position?
              To your statement; "They seem to believe that those with severe mental illness will respond better to prayer than psychological treatment and legal restriction from using firearms."

              I answered;

              Not entirely true.

              I don't think people who are dangerous, insane, deranged, whatever should be able to go and buy guns. I just don't.


              Surely you saw that..

              ..and I don't necessarily agree with; "No police options to prevent, no change in how all states must react to control the deranged and their access to firearms."

              Again, the police are going to take time to get to any location. It's going to save more lives to have an armed respondent on site, that's all there is too it. The question is how important are our kids to us ? Are we more concerned with debating and arguing about guns and gun control or do we want to stop seeing our kids get killed ?

              and again, I don't see why crazy people need to have firearms, but I admit that's going to be something that's probably going to be very difficult to completely stop. Do we make everyone get a complete mental eval, psych work-up before allowing purchase etc ??

              ..... I don't see that happening.

              Originally posted by redrover View Post
              Are we talking about locking people up before they commit a crime?I'm not sure how well that would go over.
              No, it wouldn't go over well at all.

              ?


              • #67
                So it seems the situation merits some excuse for the lack of adult management of this kids issues. Not sure how much, but it explains it a bit more - see below.

                His "adoptive mother" died and this family took him into their home.

                I think they made a poor judgment in allowing him to bring firearms into their home - this person they didn't know that well. I would have never allowed such a thing.

                In any case, this is what they got for trying to help someone... sad that things go so poorly so often when people try to do good deeds isn't it ?

                What a sad sad deal this turned out to be

                ----------------------------------------------------------------------

                In a wrenching interview with the South Florida news outlet, James and Kimberly Snead, who raised three sons, said when they welcomed Cruz into their Parkland home last Thanksgiving he seemed pleasant, and to be growing happier after the Nov. 1 pneumonia death of his mom.

                A family that took in Nikolas Cruz after his adoptive mother died are now devastated by the thought we had this monster living under our roof and didnt know,

                We had this monster living under our roof and we didnt know, Kimberly Snead told the Sun Sentinel. We didnt see this side of him.

                Everything everybody seems to know, we didnt know, James Snead added. Its as simple as that.

                The Sneads son had asked if he could move in, and they agreed, knowing he was extremely depressed about his mothers death.

                I told him thered be rules and he followed every rule to the T, James Snead told the outlet, adding they made Cruz buy a locking gun safe to keep a weapons stash that included the AR-15, two other assault-type rifles, knives, BB guns and pellet guns.

                He only asked for permission to take the weapons out twice; they told the Sun Sentinel they said yes once and no once.

                He was very nave. He wasnt dumb, just nave, James Snead said, saying Cruz didnt know how to cook or use a microwave, or how to do his own laundry. He rode a bicycle to work at a Dollar Tree.

                They insisted he enlist in adult education classes and drove him to school each day. Kimberly Snead said she took him to her own therapist just five days before the shooting to set up sessions.

                Kimberly Snead said she last saw Cruz around 10 a.m. last Wednesday; hed told the family he didnt have school and was going fishing.

                Meanwhile, Cruz sent the couples son a few texts, asking in one what classroom the boy was in, and telling the son he was going to see a movie. Later he texted he had something important he wanted to tell the teen.

                Then he wrote: Nothing man.

                They believe those texts were sent during the Uber ride Cruz took to the murder scene.

                His last text to their son, as Cruz pulled up at the school, said Yo.

                Around 2:30 p.m. Wednesday, their son called sounding panic-stricken, and reporting hed heard shots fired on campus. Snead told his son to walk to Walmart and hed come get him.

                As Snead drove there, a SWAT commander called his cellphone and asked where his son Nik was; he said he didnt know. He said he called the commander back and pleaded, I need a police presence at my house. Go make sure my wife is OK.

                I was fearing for her life, he told the news outlet.

                Kimberly Snead said law enforcement showed up at the home with guns drawn yelling, Put your hands up and Kimberly Snead let them in to search, though Cruz was already in custody elsewhere.

                Their own son was being questioned by Broward County detectives. Later, Cruz was led into the building, handcuffed and wearing a hospital gown, surrounded by deputies, the couple recalled.

                Really, Nik? Really? she yelled at him, the Sun Sentinel reported.

                He said he was sorry. He apologized. He looked lost, absolutely lost, said James Snead. And that was the last time we saw him.


                https://www.newsmax.com/headline/nik.../18/id/844017/

                ?


                • #68
                  CT, just curious. Do you modify font size, add bold and italics and other text modifications on the fly, or do you add all that after you have included all your text first? Just want to know if it is as difficult to write as it is to read.

                  ?


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post
                    So it seems the situation merits some excuse for the lack of adult management of this kids issues. Not sure how much, but it explains it a bit more - see below.

                    His "adoptive mother" died and this family took him into their home.

                    I think they made a poor judgment in allowing him to bring firearms into their home - this person they didn't know that well. I would have never allowed such a thing.

                    In any case, this is what they got for trying to help someone... sad that things go so poorly so often when people try to do good deeds isn't it ?

                    What a sad sad deal this turned out to be

                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

                    In a wrenching interview with the South Florida news outlet, James and Kimberly Snead, who raised three sons, said when they welcomed Cruz into their Parkland home last Thanksgiving he seemed pleasant, and to be growing happier after the Nov. 1 pneumonia death of his mom.

                    A family that took in Nikolas Cruz after his adoptive mother died are now devastated by the thought we had this monster living under our roof and didnt know,

                    We had this monster living under our roof and we didnt know, Kimberly Snead told the Sun Sentinel. We didnt see this side of him.

                    Everything everybody seems to know, we didnt know, James Snead added. Its as simple as that.

                    The Sneads son had asked if he could move in, and they agreed, knowing he was extremely depressed about his mothers death.

                    I told him thered be rules and he followed every rule to the T, James Snead told the outlet, adding they made Cruz buy a locking gun safe to keep a weapons stash that included the AR-15, two other assault-type rifles, knives, BB guns and pellet guns.

                    He only asked for permission to take the weapons out twice; they told the Sun Sentinel they said yes once and no once.

                    He was very nave. He wasnt dumb, just nave, James Snead said, saying Cruz didnt know how to cook or use a microwave, or how to do his own laundry. He rode a bicycle to work at a Dollar Tree.

                    They insisted he enlist in adult education classes and drove him to school each day. Kimberly Snead said she took him to her own therapist just five days before the shooting to set up sessions.

                    Kimberly Snead said she last saw Cruz around 10 a.m. last Wednesday; hed told the family he didnt have school and was going fishing.

                    Meanwhile, Cruz sent the couples son a few texts, asking in one what classroom the boy was in, and telling the son he was going to see a movie. Later he texted he had something important he wanted to tell the teen.

                    Then he wrote: Nothing man.

                    They believe those texts were sent during the Uber ride Cruz took to the murder scene.

                    His last text to their son, as Cruz pulled up at the school, said Yo.

                    Around 2:30 p.m. Wednesday, their son called sounding panic-stricken, and reporting hed heard shots fired on campus. Snead told his son to walk to Walmart and hed come get him.

                    As Snead drove there, a SWAT commander called his cellphone and asked where his son Nik was; he said he didnt know. He said he called the commander back and pleaded, I need a police presence at my house. Go make sure my wife is OK.

                    I was fearing for her life, he told the news outlet.

                    Kimberly Snead said law enforcement showed up at the home with guns drawn yelling, Put your hands up and Kimberly Snead let them in to search, though Cruz was already in custody elsewhere.

                    Their own son was being questioned by Broward County detectives. Later, Cruz was led into the building, handcuffed and wearing a hospital gown, surrounded by deputies, the couple recalled.

                    Really, Nik? Really? she yelled at him, the Sun Sentinel reported.

                    He said he was sorry. He apologized. He looked lost, absolutely lost, said James Snead. And that was the last time we saw him.


                    https://www.newsmax.com/headline/nik.../18/id/844017/
                    That was interesting that was the first thing I've read about what Cruz was like. Couldn't we strike a compromise? We'll let you shoot all the children you want as long as you promise not to shoot anymore teachers. From what I see on fake news the kids may have other ideas. They recognize that Trump and their Florida republicans have nothing to offer them but prayers.I haven't seen the prayer yet that can stop a bullet.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by redrover View Post

                      Are we talking about locking people up before they commit a crime?I'm not sure how well that would go over.

                      It would not go over well, so we need to wait until they kill a few dozen kids and them GET EM!!

                      Seriously, mentally ill kids, social misfits, and other problems will continue to be a problem in modern america. And there is little we can do about it except lock them away once they commit these murders. Has nothing to do with guns, but with the brains of these people. In the case of this last shooter the kid had problems and then must have lost all of his family. He was living with another family who did not want to see him homeless. A terrible situation, and apparently the family was not watching him very closely to get any warning signals. They probably both worked as most families do these days so no one at home to watch his behavior. But even if they would have, what can you do in regards to our system to try to stop the mentally affected people?

                      Impossible to baby sit millions of potential future mass shooters. The first line of defense has always been with the parents, but with this kid his parents were either nonexistent or dead. I heard today, just caught the end of it something about the police monitoring social media and detaining anyone who meets a profile in regards to these acts. If this ever happens, thought crimes are not far behind that. And while many people have had thoughts of killing some arse hole, especially when young, few would ever act on such thoughts. Thinking something as opposed to actually doing it....quite a difference.
                      Last edited by Blue Doggy; 02-19-2018, 11:56 AM.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by HawkeyeDJ View Post
                        CT, just curious. Do you modify font size, add bold and italics and other text modifications on the fly, or do you add all that after you have included all your text first? Just want to know if it is as difficult to write as it is to read.
                        I do it after I've added the text. I italicize text from the cited article and bold parts that seem most important. Sorry if it's hard to read, are you looking at this on a cell phone or something ?

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by redrover View Post

                          That was interesting that was the first thing I've read about what Cruz was like. Couldn't we strike a compromise? We'll let you shoot all the children you want as long as you promise not to shoot anymore teachers. From what I see on fake news the kids may have other ideas. They recognize that Trump and their Florida republicans have nothing to offer them but prayers.I haven't seen the prayer yet that can stop a bullet.
                          It explained the situation better. I still don't see why he had firearms.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                            It would not go over well, so we need to wait until they kill a few dozen kids and them GET EM!!

                            Seriously, mentally ill kids, social misfits, and other problems will continue to be a problem in modern america. And there is little we can do about it except lock them away once they commit these murders. Has nothing to do with guns, but with the brains of these people. In the case of this last shooter the kid had problems and then must have lost all of his family. He was living with another family who did not want to see him homeless. A terrible situation, and apparently the family was not watching him very closely to get any warning signals. They probably both worked as most families do these days so no one at home to watch his behavior. But even if they would have, what can you do in regards to our system to try to stop the mentally affected people?

                            Impossible to baby sit millions of potential future mass shooters. The first line of defense has always been with the parents, but with this kid his parents were either nonexistent or dead. I heard today, just caught the end of it something about the police monitoring social media and detaining anyone who meets a profile in regards to these acts. If this ever happens, thought crimes are not far behind that. And while many people have had thoughts of killing some arse hole, especially when young, few would ever act on such thoughts. Thinking something as opposed to actually doing it....quite a difference.
                            Still, this kid had the cops called on him for his behaviour numerous times. He'd posted some pretty malicious statements online and had obvious issues. Why did he possess firearms ? The adults - parents & FBI obviously botched this.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                              Make fewer laws, then, and allow police to force psychological evaluation and adjudication of incompetence if needed. Go deep on this issue, and it just might come down to incompetence of law enforcement and restriction on the police to initiate medical steps with the mentally unstable who want to use firearms. It seems you only want to address incompetence by law enforcement.

                              Your solution is too little, too late. You are asking for more security in schools (they'll need body armor and firearms. Really?) Then you want them to just train and wait until the deranged show up to shoot up a school. No police options to prevent, no change in how all states must react to control the deranged and their access to firearms. Is that your position?
                              There are three forms of cultural morality.

                              Theonomous (Gods Law) as our founders called it Natural law where the laws of God are embedded in our lives and hearts. Our country was once ruled by this culture

                              The next form is:

                              Heteronomous (Man's Law) This form exists in Marxist and Muslim countries. A few men dictate to the rest of the culture what is right and what is wrong. You are told how to dress, how to pray, how to wash your hands, how to behave in public, who you can be seen with and who you can't, etc.

                              The third form is:

                              Autonomous (Self law) That's what the United States culture has evolved into. Do what you think is right or wrong. No one else can question your beliefs. Mass shootings, riots, adultery, sexual harassment, homosexuality, abortion, even speeding and driving drunk are the result of this evolution. Man has freed himself from God and no longer values God's law. There is no value for the life of a fellow human being. If someone cuts you off in traffic, you shoot them or you run over them. If someone has a different political opinion, they are evil and should be killed or at least called names. Anyone who thinks that doing away with guns will cure this problem will be sadly disappointed.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

                                There are three forms of cultural morality.

                                Theonomous (Gods Law) as our founders called it Natural law where the laws of God are embedded in our lives and hearts. Our country was once ruled by this culture

                                The next form is:

                                Heteronomous (Man's Law) This form exists in Marxist and Muslim countries. A few men dictate to the rest of the culture what is right and what is wrong. You are told how to dress, how to pray, how to wash your hands, how to behave in public, who you can be seen with and who you can't, etc.

                                The third form is:

                                Autonomous (Self law) That's what the United States culture has evolved into. Do what you think is right or wrong. No one else can question your beliefs. Mass shootings, riots, adultery, sexual harassment, homosexuality, abortion, even speeding and driving drunk are the result of this evolution. Man has freed himself from God and no longer values God's law. There is no value for the life of a fellow human being. If someone cuts you off in traffic, you shoot them or you run over them. If someone has a different political opinion, they are evil and should be killed or at least called names. Anyone who thinks that doing away with guns will cure this problem will be sadly disappointed.
                                Why don't you develop your argument on how a society that was slowly evolving out of the massive dysfunction of slavery, was somehow closer to a deity's law, than today's secular law. In the meantime I'll answer a few other questions.

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