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New & Improved Amendment

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  • New & Improved Amendment

    There's a senator who wants to help the WH executive end birthright citizenship (eg,this part of the 14th amendment: "... All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. ..."
    Here's a link on today's handy helper, Senator Lindsay Graham:
    Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) on Tuesday said that he will introduce legislation to end birthright citizenship after President Trump suggested he wanted to do so through an executive order.

    "Finally, a president willing to take on this absurd policy of birthright citizenship. Ive always supported comprehensive immigration reform and at the same time the elimination of birthright citizenship," Graham said in a string of tweets.
    .. ..

    He added that he plans "to introduce legislation along the same lines as the proposed executive order" from Trump. Congress is out of session until Nov. 13.

    If Graham is going to propose legislation to amend the Constitution, his bill would need to win over not only two-thirds majorities in Congress, but also be ratified by three-quarters of the states.

    His announcement comes hours after Trump said in an interview released Tuesday that he will sign an executive order intended to end the practice of birthright citizenship.

    "It was always told to me that you needed a constitutional amendment. Guess what? You don't," Trump said during an interview with Axios.
    First, Senator Graham can help Trump understand stuff about the Constitution of the US, like lawmakin' or how to modify or repeal amendments. After that, the Senator and the prez can console each other following a resounding defeat of their attempt to modify the 14th amendment.
    Last edited by radcentr; 10-30-2018, 07:23 PM. Reason: helpful link

  • #2
    I do wonder if the president is hinting around at ending or changing things in ways that put a stop to this in other ways.

    He has previously spoken on ending chain migration.. which is often connected to "birthright citizenship."

    When illegal aliens are using this as a tool to end up moving their entire extended families into the U.S., something is wrong and in need of correction.

    This is what we're seeing and what needs corrected.

    The founders did not intend the 14th amendment to be used in this way.

    "Send over your pregnant girlfriend Jose ! Have her give birth in America !! That's our whole families ticket into the place !"


    • #3
      So the president announced his "executive order" to end birthright citizenship and sent both sides into a tizzy:
      • Conservatives applauding and championing the president's effort; and
      • Lib'ruhls threatening and crying and gnashing their teeth...

      My observation has been, an executive order won't do it: The Supreme Court has already upheld birthright citizenship so if we don't want that to be, it will take an amendment to the constitution... and until yesterday, I had wondered if they were going to clue into that little tid bit.

      Kudos to Lindsey Graham who, since the Kavanaugh hearings, really does seem to be drifting back to the conservative side of the aisle.

      NOT that I believe a Constitutional Amendment has a ghost of a chance of prevailing ... but it's the thought that counts, right?


      • #4
        It may be interesting what, if anything happens.


        U.S. citizenship is rendered meaningless if it is defined as an accident of geography and it is the clear that this was not the intention authors of those who wrote the 14th Amendment and shepherded it into the Constitution. President Trump has rightly targeted birthright citizenship as an historical error that needs to be corrected:


        Michael Anton, a former national security adviser for Trump, pointed out in July that "theres a clause in the middle of the amendment that people ignore or they misinterpret subject to the jurisdiction thereof.

        "What they are saying is, if you are born on U.S. soil subject to the jurisdiction of the United States meaning youre the child of citizens or the child of legal immigrants, then you are entitled to citizenship, Anton told Fox News Tucker Carlson in July. If you are here illegally, if you owe allegiance to a foreign nation, if youre the citizen of a foreign country, that clause does not apply to you.

        The only question is whether this historical error is better corrected though a clarifying amendment, legislation, or through a Trump executive order. GOP Rep. Steve King, R-IA, has proposed legislation:

        In January of this year, Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) proposed the Birthright Citizenship Act of 2015 (HR 140) that seeks to amend current law by making requirements for citizenship more narrow, and, in Kings opinion, more constitutional

        A Century ago it didnt matter very much that a practice began that has now grown into a birthright citizenship, an anchor baby agenda, King said. When they started granting automatic citizenship on all babies born in the United States they missed the clause in the 14th Amendment that says, And subject to the jurisdiction thereof. So once the practice began, it grew out of proportion and today between 340,000 and 750,000 babies are born in America each year that get automatic citizenship even though both parents are illegal immigrants. That has got to stop.

        Kings bill seeks to amend section 301 of the Immigration and Nationality Act to clarify those classes of individuals born in the United States who are nationals and citizens of the United States at birth. The bill states that a person born in the United States is a citizen if one parent is (1) a citizen or national of the United States, (2) an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States whose residence is in the United States; or (3) an alien performing active service in the armed forces.

        But some would argue that no clarifying legislation is necessary and that as a result of President Trumps appointment of originalist interpreters of the Constitution to the Supreme Court, the original intent of the 14th Amendment can be restored.

        The Supreme Court has never said birthright citizenship is constitutional and legal scholars have noted that supporters of birthright citizenship, a gross misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment, ignore the intentions of those who wrote it.

        The relevant portion of the 14th Amendment reads:
        Section 1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.

        The 14th Amendment does not guarantee citizenship to everyone born in the USA. The language states that the persons born or naturalized, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.

        The question, then, is, how is a person born in the United States subject to the jurisdiction of the USA?

        The few relevant Supreme Court cases state that the status of the parents determines the citizenship of the child. This means that if the parents are illegal aliens, they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the USA for purposes of the 14th Amendment citizenship test.

        Proponents for U.S. citizenship for all born in the USA of illegal aliens cite the Supreme Court case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898). But this case dealt with legal immigrants, not illegal, who had established a legal residence in the USA and thus domiciled in the USA. The Court stated:
        [A]t the time of his said birth, his mother and father were domiciled residents of the United States, and had established and enjoyed a permanent domicil and residence therein at said city and county of San Francisco, State aforesaid.

        The key is that the parents were lawfully "domiciled" in the USA.

        In Elkins v. Moreno, the Supreme Court dealt with "domicile" for in-state tuition in Maryland. "Domicile" is complicated, but the key is that one has a permanent legal residence.

        President Trump has announced he will deal by executive order with the question of citizenship for children born of illegal aliens. Senator Lindsey Graham announced he will introduce legislation to amend the 14th Amendment, similar to President Trump's proposed executive order.

        The question is the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" if the baby's parents are illegal aliens.

        President Trump can issue an executive order to the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Services that the policy of the United States is that children born of illegal aliens are not citizens because the parents as illegal aliens are subject to a foreign power. Illegal aliens are citizens of a country other than the USA and owe legal allegiance to that country.

        The important fact is that President Trump will force a discussion of this issue, which he may win in court. A constitutional amendment will take too long, so the best method is an executive order to get the case to the Supreme Court as quickly as possible.


        • #5
          If the executive order cannot be voided by a veto-proof law passed by Congress, then I suppose the next option would be the SC. So far, it looks like Congress could pass a veto-proof measure to shut down the WH on this issue. One question involves immediate enforcement. The prez can order ICE to enforce his EO, but would they follow thru if a judicial or legislative precedence were considered over the EO?

          The past/current strategy is thus: The foreign parents of a child born in the US can be deported, regardless, if they were "irregular" immigrants. The "anchor baby" strategy hasn't been valid for quite awhile, if it were ever successfully used. At least for Mexico's law, a child born here has citizenship rights there as well, so parents and child alike are deported (child is kept with family), or child is given up for adoption here in the US. That was also a clear distinction regarding DACA; conservatives weren't going after people born in the US, now adults. They were specifically objecting to kids born elsewhere, but raised in the US without completing immigration requirements.


          • #6
            What if the libruhls wont challenge the EO because they dont want any legal challenge that could rise up to the Supreme Court?

            With Kavanaugh now on SCOTUS, it could very well be that is THE reason Trump would even issue an EO that goes against an issue already decided by a previous Court.


            • #7
              A little eduction for us.

              Some of us may hate the person offering it. But...

              That isn't relevant to the truth of the matter.


              People who know zilch about the history of the 14th Amendment are pontificating magnificently and completely falsely on the issue du jour.

              .. the president can end the citizenship of "anchor babies" by executive order -- for the simple reason that no Supreme Court or U.S. Congress has ever conferred such a right.

              It's just something everyone believes to be true.

              How could anyone -- even a not-very-bright person -- imagine that granting citizenship to the children of illegal aliens is actually in our Constitution?

              The first question would be: Why would they do that? It's like being accused of robbing a homeless person. WHY WOULD I?

              The Supreme Court has stated -- repeatedly! -- that the "main object" of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment "was to settle the question ... as to the citizenship of free negroes," making them "citizens of the United States and of the state in which they reside."

              Democrats, the entire media and House Speaker Paul Ryan seem to have forgotten the Civil War. They believe that, immediately after a war that ended slavery, Americans rose up as one and demanded that the children of illegals be granted citizenship!


              Give me a scenario -- just one scenario -- where the post-Civil War amendments would be intended to grant citizenship to the kids of Chinese ladies flying to birthing hospitals in California, or pregnant Latin Americans sneaking across the border in the back of flatbed trucks.

              You can make it up. It doesn't have to be a true scenario. Any scenario!

              As the court has explained again and again and again:

              "(N)o one can fail to be impressed with the one pervading purpose found in (the 13th, 14th and 15th) amendments, lying at the foundation of each, and without which none of them would have been even suggested; we mean the freedom of the slave race, the security and firm establishment of that freedom, and the protection of the newly made freeman and citizen from the oppressions of those who had formerly exercised unlimited dominion over him."

              That's why the amendment refers to people who are "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States "and of the state wherein they reside." For generations, African-Americans were domiciled in this country. The only reason they weren't citizens was because of slavery, which the country had just fought a civil war to end.

              The 14th Amendment fixed that.

              The amendment didn't even make Indians citizens. Why? Because it was about freed slaves. Sixteen years after the 14th Amendment was ratified, the Supreme Court held that an American Indian, John Elk, was not a citizen, despite having been born here.

              Instead, Congress had to pass a separate law making Indians citizens, which it did, more than half a century after the adoption of the 14th Amendment. (It's easy to miss -- the law is titled: "THE INDIAN CITIZENSHIP ACT OF 1924.") Why would such a law be necessary if simply being born in the U.S. was enough to confer citizenship?

              Even today, the children of diplomats and foreign ministers are not granted citizenship on the basis of being born here.

              President Trump, unlike his critics, honors black history by recognizing that the whole purpose of the Civil War amendments was to guarantee the rights of freed slaves.

              But the left has always been bored with black people. If they start gassing on about "civil rights," you can be sure it will be about transgenders, the abortion ladies or illegal aliens. Liberals can never seem to remember the people whose ancestors were brought here as slaves, i.e., the only reason we even have civil rights laws.

              Still, it requires breathtaking audacity to use the Civil War amendments to bring in cheap foreign labor, which drives down the wages of African-Americans -- the very people the amendments were written to protect!

              Whether the children born to legal immigrants are citizens is controversial enough. But at least there's a Supreme Court decision claiming that they are -- U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark. That's "birthright citizenship."

              It's something else entirely to claim that an illegal alien, subject to deportation, can drop a baby and suddenly claim to be the parent of a "citizen."

              This crackpot notion was concocted by liberal zealot Justice William Brennan and slipped into a footnote as dicta in a 1982 case. "Dicta" means it was not the ruling of the court, just a random aside, with zero legal significance.

              Left-wing activists seized on Brennan's aside and browbeat everyone into believing that anchor babies are part of our great constitutional heritage, emerging straight from the pen of James Madison.

              No Supreme Court has ever held that children born to illegal aliens are citizens. No Congress has deliberated and decided to grant that right. It's a made-up right, grounded only in the smoke and mirrors around Justice Brennan's 1982 footnote.

              Obviously, it would be better if Congress passed a law clearly stating that children born to illegals are not citizens. (Trump won't be president forever!) But until that happens, the president of the United States is not required to continue a ridiculous practice that has absolutely no basis in law.

              It's often said that journalism is the first draft of history. As we now see, fake news is the first draft of fake history.



              • #8
                Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
                What if the libruhls wont challenge the EO because they dont want any legal challenge that could rise up to the Supreme Court?

                With Kavanaugh now on SCOTUS, it could very well be that is THE reason Trump would even issue an EO that goes against an issue already decided by a previous Court.
                That was an interesting line of thought for me; what would a SCOTUS of this day 'n age do with a conflict regarding the 14th amendment, when "birthright" was supposedly decided about 120 years ago? Here's one link, right wing bias:
                1. Universal birthright citizenship is a misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment (All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.) and is inconsistent with the intent of the amendments framers.
                2. Based on the legislative history at the time, the 14th Amendments framers intended to give citizenship only to those who owed their allegiance to the United States and were subject to its complete jurisdiction, primarily the newly freed slaves, who were lawful permanent residents.
                3. Owing allegiance to the United States and being subject to its complete jurisdiction means being not subject to any foreign power and excludes those only temporarily present in the country.
                4. Most legal arguments for universal birthright citizenship point to the Supreme Courts 1898 decision in United States v. Wong Kim Ark, which challenged the governments decision to deny re-entry to a U.S.-born child of foreign nationals who were legally present and permanently residing in the United States.
                Wong Kim Ark stands only for the narrow proposition that the U.S.-born children of lawful permanent resident aliens are U.S. citizens. It says nothing with respect to the U.S.-born children of illegal or non-permanent resident aliens.
                (I bolded last part of quote)

                Another link, left wing bias:
                Many decades later in the case of Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982), in which the Court upheld the right of all children regardless of alienage to a free public education, the Court analogized its holding on Equal Protection Clause grounds to the settled law on the Citizenship Clause as declared in Wong Kim Ark. Specifically, the Court noted that just as undocumented immigrants are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States for purposes of the Citizenship Clause, they too are within the jurisdiction of a state for purposes of the Equal Protection Clause. Id. at 211 n.10.

                There we have it. If or when the EO happens, it will be contested, first in Congress. If it is not resolved at that point (my position), it will probably be argued in the SCOTUS. Between the two links above, the arguments pro/con are summarized. The conservative position -court's view- is apparently less clear than some would like, as far as the birthright issue is concerned.


                • #9
                  Im expecting Pelosi to enact a new DACA law (which should en enacted a few years back, to avoid Obamas phone and pencil)... and claim it as her idea.


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
                    Im expecting Pelosi to enact a new DACA law (which should en enacted a few years back, to avoid Obamas phone and pencil)... and claim it as her idea.
                    Who can tell what pelosi may do. Or say.

                    It won't matter for useful purposes, she has a history of saying weird things.

                    Sadly, I think we can expect she'll continue being an embarrassment to herself, her family and America.

                    Funny that many want to ignore the facts issued here -

                    Because they happen to come from someone they don't "like"

                    ... they're still facts. Some of us will pretend they're not, or that they don't exist etc.


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                      Who can tell what pelosi may do. Or say.

                      It won't matter for useful purposes, she has a history of saying weird things.

                      Sadly, I think we can expect she'll continue being an embarrassment to herself, her family and America.

                      Funny that many want to ignore the facts issued here -

                      Because they happen to come from someone they don't "like"

                      ... they're still facts. Some of us will pretend they're not, or that they don't exist etc.
                      So far, the history around the 14th -from it's creation to the judicial reviews- points to another landing in the SCOTUS. It will be interesting how, or if, those two arguments (noted in post #8) will be made. The other possibility might be Trump's EO is just a claim, rather than a reality.


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                        So far, the history around the 14th -from it's creation to the judicial reviews- points to another landing in the SCOTUS. It will be interesting how, or if, those two arguments (noted in post #8) will be made. The other possibility might be Trump's EO is just a claim, rather than a reality.
                        As this president likes to say a lot; "We'll see." LOL

                        We can only make wild guesses at this point I think.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                          As this president likes to say a lot; "We'll see." LOL

                          We can only make wild guesses at this point I think.
                          I'm guessing Trump will go for it, and if it goes to the supreme court he will win.

                          Here is the original quote, from Senator Jacob Howard. Referring to the citizenship clause of the 14thAmendment, he says:
                          This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.

                          Birthright citizenship for illegal aliens has been a scam all along.


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by msc View Post
                            I'm guessing Trump will go for it, and if it goes to the supreme court he will win.

                            Here is the original quote, from Senator Jacob Howard. Referring to the citizenship clause of the 14thAmendment, he says:
                            This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.

                            Birthright citizenship for illegal aliens has been a scam all along.
                            It is a scam as is shown here -

                            The anchor baby then drag the entire clan in, has gone on long enough and needs to end. There's no justification for it.


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                              It is a scam as is shown here -

                              The anchor baby then drag the entire clan in, has gone on long enough and needs to end. There's no justification for it.
                              The anchor baby scheme hasn't worked in the parent's favor for awhile, if it ever did. Link:
                              This is the definition that has little legal underpinning. For illegal immigrant parents, being the parent of a U.S. citizen child almost never forms the core of a successful defense in an immigration court. In short, if the undocumented parent of a U.S.-born child is caught in the United States, he or she legally faces the very same risk of deportation as any other immigrant.

                              The scheme takes about 21 years to pull off. From the same link:
                              That long game is this: If and when a U.S. citizen reaches the age of 21, he or she can then apply for a parent to obtain a visa and green card and eventually enter the United States legally.
                              ..The parent needs to leave the US after the kid is born here. .But, if the parent violated any US laws during their original stay here, that puts their petition for residency in peril.

                              Arguing Trump's case in court, it might be a wiser strategy to stick with comments from the authors of the 14th, along with a prepared counter to the Plyer v. Doe angle. I'd drop the "anchor baby" argument, which apparently make up a very small number of successful immigration cases for adults. Most of those parents are deported; the baby either stays here (adoption or placed w/ qualified relative) or goes back to parent's home country along with parents.