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Can you imagine if Obama had even suggested this?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by DavidSF View Post

    <shrug>

    I give up.

    I've explained my meaning several times and you insist on continuing to tell me what I mean.

    Go ahead, believe what you have to. As is typical when trying to assert your own meaning into someone else's words, you're wrong.
    You wrote that I insinuated Trump had a meeting (in the past) with Putin without aides and that it was a lie. I never insinuated any such thing. As the OP stated Trump does have such a meeting scheduled on July 16.

    You've written that if Obama had done such a thing you would have concern. Do you have any concerns regarding Trump's upcoming private meeting with Putin?

    ?


    • #32
      Originally posted by HawkeyeDJ View Post

      You wrote that I insinuated Trump had a meeting (in the past) with Putin without aides and that it was a lie. I never insinuated any such thing. As the OP stated Trump does have such a meeting scheduled on July 16.

      You've written that if Obama had done such a thing you would have concern. Do you have any concerns regarding Trump's upcoming private meeting with Putin?
      OF course ... but probably not the kind of concern you're talking about.

      As a Christian man, I eschew even the appearance of evil and in this climate, facing the harsh criticism he faces hourly, it is unwise (at best, wrong at worst) to meet with the Russian president unattended by any possible oversight. EVEN if totally innocent (and I doubt it is totally innocent), such a meeting gives the appearance that something is up ... something is amiss ... something is not right.

      UNLIKE, say, the husband of a presidential candidate meeting the Attorney General, in private, on the tarmac of an Arizona airport... unattended by any possible oversight. I'm SURE they didn't discuss anything about the investigation into the wife's use of her own servers to conduct State business. <shrug> To put it in our vernacular, <shrug> I have no concerns. <wink>

      ?


      • #33
        Originally posted by DavidSF View Post

        OF course ... but probably not the kind of concern you're talking about.

        As a Christian man, I eschew even the appearance of evil and in this climate, facing the harsh criticism he faces hourly, it is unwise (at best, wrong at worst) to meet with the Russian president unattended by any possible oversight. EVEN if totally innocent (and I doubt it is totally innocent), such a meeting gives the appearance that something is up ... something is amiss ... something is not right.

        UNLIKE, say, the husband of a presidential candidate meeting the Attorney General, in private, on the tarmac of an Arizona airport... unattended by any possible oversight. I'm SURE they didn't discuss anything about the investigation into the wife's use of her own servers to conduct State business. <shrug> To put it in our vernacular, <shrug> I have no concerns. <wink>
        I don't think the nation can heal until we get to the bottom of the tarmac scandal. Fortunately Trump is putting a justice on the court who advocates torture. I bet Lynch will crack in no time at all.I bet Trump and Putin are going to spend a lot of time talking about adoptions. Just like two years ago.

        ?


        • #34
          Originally posted by HawkeyeDJ View Post

          Do you have any concerns regarding Trump's upcoming private meeting with Putin?
          Well, in russian politics and business there is the old habit of collecting "compromat" ( compromising information/material) about politicians, business partners, public figures of all kinds and of course enemies, and russian intelligence is remarkably good at that. The Czars secret police did it, the Communists did it, and OF COURSE the practice hasnt stopped under Putin ( who rose in the intelligence services).
          Compromat often provided the ammunition for political trials where the verdict was already written in advance, more often for blackmail or for ensuring loyalty. For ensuring loyalty it was ( and is) in most cases enough to let the target person know that you know and could, if you wanted let others know that.....
          Putin has definitely used "compromat" information to eliminate some of his adversaries, at least as persons of public life, if that wasnt enough, also literally.
          Now enter Trump : He has done business in Russia since the 1980s (Miss World) and he knows more than one guy in Putins inner circle from these times. That Trump would become a target for "compromat" tactics is not even wildly speculated. Trump never was a scandal averse person after all and noone gets that rich in construction without getting his hands dirty every now and then. Neither in the US nor anywhere else. Thus it is was most likely a doable task for the Russians to collect a file that he would like to keep out of the public sphere (and that Putin could use against him, if he wanted).
          That is a speculation, although a reasonable one : It is plausible that the Russians actually have video footage of dirty games with russian prostitutes, as sometimes alleged (since that is also an old KGB tactic). Yet wether Trump would have to be seriously concerned about a release, is at least questionable ( his audience has also forgiven him a certain "pussy grabbing" tape after all). Another matter would be dubious financial/business links. In the 1990s and early 2000s there was a lot of laundered russian money pumped into US real estate and Trump was in business with a bunch of the more dubious figures of that time. It is far more likely that a leak with the potential to endanger him would come from that corner.

          "Compromat" would be a rather plausible reason why Trump might not want any notetakers. Yet in political terms that shouldnt be overrated.
          If my understanding of the US political process doesnt betray me than Trump can give Putin none of the things that Putin really wants, such as lifting of the sanctions, recognition of the annexation of Crimea, or a free hand in eastern Europe, regardless what they talk about in private, because for that he needs Congress.
          Both men share an interest in knifing chancellor Merkel and in weakening the European Union, yet not to equal extents. Trump has often frontally assaulted Europeans. For Putin it is enough to keep Europe just a little off base ( sweet talking in public, but support for anti-system parties f.e.), without endangering its prosperity. He needs them as customers for his oil and gas after all. And neither has been remarkably successful.
          And they are also on opposing sides on various issues. Russia is in an alliance with Iran, not only in Syria, and no, Putin is not going to ditch that. The german-russian Baltic Sea pipeline, that Trump has fumed about in Brussels, is one of Putins pet projects. He would make a mockery of himself on the homefront if he stood by in case of Trump hitting Germany with sanctions over it, as the US president has promised. And he is no less sensitive than Trump to loosing face on the homefront.
          And then, Russia is also on the list of nations that Trump has hit with "punitive tariffs" and that he threatens to hit again.
          As the first US president that ever considered moving agressively against Allies and hammering them in public a good idea Trump still has merit in russian eyes, since he is well down the road of shattering the western alliance. The more, the better for the Cremlin.
          Yet still : In measurable, political terms not much should be expected from that meeting. That is also why my concrete concerns wouldnt so much circle around it.

          ?


          • #35
            Originally posted by redrover View Post

            I don't think the nation can heal until we get to the bottom of the tarmac scandal. Fortunately Trump is putting a justice on the court who advocates torture. I bet Lynch will crack in no time at all.I bet Trump and Putin are going to spend a lot of time talking about adoptions. Just like two years ago.
            Don't be an idiot.

            The tarmac "scandal" started healing once trump took office.

            ?


            • #36
              The Cremlin, unsuspicious of having a soft spot for Merkel, has come out publicly against Trumps tirades against Germany and the Baltic Sea pipeline. The Cremlin also officially accuses the Trump administration of mainly trying to sell their own liquid gas with that. Probably the Helsinki summit wont be as harmonious as some people have claimed :


              https://www.reuters.com/article/us-n...-idUSKBN1K21A8

              ?


              • #37
                Originally posted by Voland View Post
                The Cremlin, unsuspicious of having a soft spot for Merkel, has come out publicly against Trumps tirades against Germany and the Baltic Sea pipeline. The Cremlin also officially accuses the Trump administration of mainly trying to sell their own liquid gas with that. Probably the Helsinki summit wont be as harmonious as some people have claimed :


                https://www.reuters.com/article/us-n...-idUSKBN1K21A8
                That was my thought as soon as I heard about his tirade against Germany: He wants to sell OUR gas to Russia. <shrug> can't blame a guy for trying.

                With all that criticism coming out of the Kremlin, though, it is difficult to figure why so many here are still believing Putin got Trump into office.

                ?


                • #38
                  Originally posted by DavidSF View Post

                  That was my thought as soon as I heard about his tirade against Germany: He wants to sell OUR gas to Russia. <shrug> can't blame a guy for trying.

                  With all that criticism coming out of the Kremlin, though, it is difficult to figure why so many here are still believing Putin got Trump into office.

                  He wants to sell your gas to GERMANY. Which puts him in competition with Russia. And since your gas is more expensive, he wants to use a little...force.

                  The Cremlin press release, signed by Dimitrij Peskov, Putins chief spokesman, basically contains three messages to three audiences ( at least) :

                  1). To the Trump administration : Dont take demonstrations of manlove at the summit with Putin for granted. It draws a line at crossing Russias economic sovereignity (of which the Russia-Germany pipeline is a big part) and it clearly states that Russia has no interest in joining Trump trashing Germany.
                  Putin is more astute than that. The more agressively Trump turns on Germany, the more Russia should be expected to steer the opposite course. Because he can only gain.

                  2). To the german governement : Russias policies are based on long-term interests, not on handshakes and "deals". Dont expect any earth-shattering news.


                  3.) To the domestic audience : That should be obvious. Of course Putin giving in to Trump on the pipeline issue would be political suicide -- for Putin. And is not going to happen. Forget it.







                  ?


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Voland View Post


                    He wants to sell your gas to GERMANY. Which puts him in competition with Russia. And since your gas is more expensive, he wants to use a little...force.

                    The Cremlin press release, signed by Dimitrij Peskov, Putins chief spokesman, basically contains three messages to three audiences ( at least) :

                    1). To the Trump administration : Dont take demonstrations of manlove at the summit with Putin for granted. It draws a line at crossing Russias economic sovereignity (of which the Russia-Germany pipeline is a big part) and it clearly states that Russia has no interest in joining Trump trashing Germany.
                    Putin is more astute than that. The more agressively Trump turns on Germany, the more Russia should be expected to steer the opposite course. Because he can only gain.

                    2). To the german governement : Russias policies are based on long-term interests, not on handshakes and "deals". Dont expect any earth-shattering news.


                    3.) To the domestic audience : That should be obvious. Of course Putin giving in to Trump on the pipeline issue would be political suicide -- for Putin. And is not going to happen. Forget it.
                    Gee, I can't even agree with you without you getting all condescending. I DON'T CARE who would sell gas to whom: MY POINT was, I had the same thought about Trump's motivation.
                    1) I don't foresee Trump taking anyone or anything for granted. So far, I note almost everything he does has a longer-range purpose;
                    2) I'm guessing Germany, of all the European nations, already knows this
                    3) Putin doesn't "give in" ... to anyone ... unless it fits his agenda. Russians know this (and even if they do not, their elections are a joke).

                    ?


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Voland View Post
                      The Cremlin, unsuspicious of having a soft spot for Merkel, has come out publicly against Trumps tirades against Germany and the Baltic Sea pipeline. The Cremlin also officially accuses the Trump administration of mainly trying to sell their own liquid gas with that. Probably the Helsinki summit wont be as harmonious as some people have claimed :


                      https://www.reuters.com/article/us-n...-idUSKBN1K21A8

                      If russia did not side with merkel and germany, in regards to this issue that would be insanity. I would think supplying NG to germany, the number one economy in europe is indeed in russian national interests. In a big way. Right?

                      In regards to a private meeting between trump and putin, I see nothing wrong with it. The People trusted trump enough to make him president and being "handled" is not his voter's vision of what trump is, independent, and intelligent enough not to be snowed. He is not breaking any law in meeting with Putin for awhile, alone, and in the process gets rid of the leaks that can come from less than private conversations with other leaders.

                      Of course if you believe without evidence, that putin owns trump, and they worked together to beat hillary, your imagination would run wild just thinking about what nefarious schemes and plots were being hatched between Satan and one if his cohorts. To destroy America, giving it to Putin.

                      ?


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post


                        If russia did not side with merkel and germany, in regards to this issue that would be insanity. I would think supplying NG to germany, the number one economy in europe is indeed in russian national interests. In a big way. Right?

                        In regards to a private meeting between trump and putin, I see nothing wrong with it. The People trusted trump enough to make him president and being "handled" is not his voter's vision of what trump is, independent, and intelligent enough not to be snowed. He is not breaking any law in meeting with Putin for awhile, alone, and in the process gets rid of the leaks that can come from less than private conversations with other leaders.

                        Of course if you believe without evidence, that putin owns trump, and they worked together to beat hillary, your imagination would run wild just thinking about what nefarious schemes and plots were being hatched between Satan and one if his cohorts. To destroy America, giving it to Putin.
                        Trump might not give America in this meeting but I think it's quite possible he will give away Crimea and the Ukraine. He has clearly demonstrated on numerous occasions that he is a traitor.

                        ?


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
                          Gee, I can't even agree with you without you getting all condescending. I DON'T CARE who would sell gas to whom: MY POINT was, I had the same thought about Trump's motivation.
                          1) I don't foresee Trump taking anyone or anything for granted. So far, I note almost everything he does has a longer-range purpose;
                          2) I'm guessing Germany, of all the European nations, already knows this
                          3) Putin doesn't "give in" ... to anyone ... unless it fits his agenda. Russians know this (and even if they do not, their elections are a joke).


                          Nothing in that post was meant to be condescending, at least not on purpose.
                          Trump is a gambler. That is how he did business ( 6 bancrupties ?), and that is how he does politics. Political gamblers are usually fixated on short-term gains, and bath themselves in applause of their fanbase, less a long-term picture. That is even brillantly demonstrated by the pipeline example. Trump gambled that he could bully Germany into a corner -- to hike US liquid gas exports ( that are rationally viewed non-competitive with russian gas). He drew a predictable sharp rebuke from Merkel, but he also got a thinly veiled and public warning from Putin (the latter will have bothered him more of course). Which is why the pipeline issue will remain in the closet for a while at least.
                          If Trump was a strategist like the ex-top agent Putin he would have done something like the following : Enlist support from eastern european countries that are critical of the direct german/russian oil and gas link. Because they are rightly or wrongly concerned that the older overland pipelines crossing their territory and bringing in fees will be replaced by it. Utter platitudes about Germany and Russia plotting energy politics above the others heads, disrespectfully passing their neighbours by, and generously offer liquid gas to the Poles, Czechs and others, probably for a while at subsidized prices. That would have been more difficult to brush off for Merkel and Putin. But with his foul language, and his not even thinly disguised self interest--he lost it with not even the Poles willing to stand by him.
                          That is the difference between Trump and Putin. Putin would never risk a long game, not even remotely, for a short term coup. That is how he managed to stay on top of russian politics for two decades.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Voland View Post



                            Nothing in that post was meant to be condescending, at least not on purpose.
                            Trump is a gambler. That is how he did business ( 6 bancrupties ?), and that is how he does politics. Political gamblers are usually fixated on short-term gains, and bath themselves in applause of their fanbase, less a long-term picture. That is even brillantly demonstrated by the pipeline example. Trump gambled that he could bully Germany into a corner -- to hike US liquid gas exports ( that are rationally viewed non-competitive with russian gas). He drew a predictable sharp rebuke from Merkel, but he also got a thinly veiled and public warning from Putin (the latter will have bothered him more of course). Which is why the pipeline issue will remain in the closet for a while at least.
                            If Trump was a strategist like the ex-top agent Putin he would have done something like the following : Enlist support from eastern european countries that are critical of the direct german/russian oil and gas link. Because they are rightly or wrongly concerned that the older overland pipelines crossing their territory and bringing in fees will be replaced by it. Utter platitudes about Germany and Russia plotting energy politics above the others heads, disrespectfully passing their neighbours by, and generously offer liquid gas to the Poles, Czechs and others, probably for a while at subsidized prices. That would have been more difficult to brush off for Merkel and Putin. But with his foul language, and his not even thinly disguised self interest--he lost it with not even the Poles willing to stand by him.
                            That is the difference between Trump and Putin. Putin would never risk a long game, not even remotely, for a short term coup. That is how he managed to stay on top of russian politics for two decades.
                            Unlike Trump Putin is capable of thinking beyond the current news cycle. Almost everyone knows this president has no long range or short range plans for that matter. He just makes it up as he goes along. I think Europe has come to terms with the reality that the US won't be a reliable partner until this fool is off of the world stage.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post


                              If russia did not side with merkel and germany, in regards to this issue that would be insanity. I would think supplying NG to germany, the number one economy in europe is indeed in russian national interests. In a big way. Right?

                              .
                              Russia has supplied oil and gas to Germany ( east and west) since the 1960s. Yes, since very deep in the Cold War. And Russia has, contrary to claims sometimes heard here and there, never used oil and gas as a weapon ( against Germany), not even during the worst parts of the Cold War. Which has a simple reason : They need the money and have few customers as reliable as Germany. And of course Germany could also shop their share on world markets if they wanted.
                              While exports are not as large as Trump claims ( Germans have always sought to diversify rather than to create dependencies, Russia is more or less on par with the Netherlands and Norway as a supplier), it is still money that Putin cannot realistically afford to loose. That is why he has warned Trump relatively blunt to keep his fingers out of Russias ( and Germanys) energy business :


                              https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...ptive-mr-trump
                              Last edited by Voland; 07-13-2018, 05:24 AM.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by redrover View Post

                                Trump might not give America in this meeting but I think it's quite possible he will give away Crimea and the Ukraine. He has clearly demonstrated on numerous occasions that he is a traitor.

                                Putin is an ex top agent and masterful manipulator. He is known to be profoundly unimpressed by flattery, threats and bluster and to go into meetings like that extremely well prepared. He will also know that while Trump may promise him many things in private ( in Brussels he has f.e. refused to rule out a military pullout of the baltic states and a recognition of the Crimea annexation) he would need Congress for most of that to turn into official policy. Where it will be shot down.
                                Yet even while concrete results of the meeting are unlikely a US president driving a tank through Brussels and London and trashing his own Allies is good enough for Putin. Dont expect him to join in though, except him to respond with siren songs to Berlin and London (notably). His goal is to break Americas influence in Europe. Trump brings him a lot closer than his communist predecessors at any time.
                                His other goal is getting Germany to support a lifting of the Ukraine sanctions ( because Germany is the crucial economic partner and investor). And the more Trump attacks Germany, the more likely Berlin will have second thoughts ( or so the Russians calculate). Which is not completely surreal. Wether that than will Americas interests--is a different question.
                                Last edited by Voland; 07-13-2018, 05:53 AM.

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