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So ... You Want to Stop Russia from Meddling in our Elections?

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  • So ... You Want to Stop Russia from Meddling in our Elections?

    How exactly do you propose to do that.

    I confess I know so little on the technology side. I know those Diebold voting machines are hack-able and that somewhere down the line, George Soros owns the company that owns a company that has a branch that programs them. I don't know how hard or easy it would be to re-program them though. Willing to listen if someone knows a lot more about it and is willing to educate me.

    So we want to implement systems that prohibit outside interference with voting, either a technological or manual solution is likely here (although, as a practical matter, I do not see us moving back towards manual voting processes ... which a lot of precincts do still use anyway).

    Is it the verbal/media influence we think we can stop? I don't think so: First, because the democraps believe non-citizens should have the same rights as citizens so if that prevails, we won't be able to tell Russian to not air that ad (or whatever). Maybe "Fake News" is the culprit: But how are you going to either ferret the fake from the real; or how are you going to somehow penalize anyone for writing something that really is fake news without violating their first amendment rights? (you can't).

    Let's say for the moment we all agree we don't want Russians or anyone else interfering with our "free" elections.

    How do you suggest we go about that?

  • #2
    Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
    How exactly do you propose to do that.

    I confess I know so little on the technology side. I know those Diebold voting machines are hack-able and that somewhere down the line, George Soros owns the company that owns a company that has a branch that programs them. I don't know how hard or easy it would be to re-program them though. Willing to listen if someone knows a lot more about it and is willing to educate me.

    So we want to implement systems that prohibit outside interference with voting, either a technological or manual solution is likely here (although, as a practical matter, I do not see us moving back towards manual voting processes ... which a lot of precincts do still use anyway).

    Is it the verbal/media influence we think we can stop? I don't think so: First, because the democraps believe non-citizens should have the same rights as citizens so if that prevails, we won't be able to tell Russian to not air that ad (or whatever). Maybe "Fake News" is the culprit: But how are you going to either ferret the fake from the real; or how are you going to somehow penalize anyone for writing something that really is fake news without violating their first amendment rights? (you can't).

    Let's say for the moment we all agree we don't want Russians or anyone else interfering with our "free" elections.

    How do you suggest we go about that?
    I would to believe that we all agree we all don't want Russians interfering with our free elections. To this point republicans seem to be more concerned with stopping black people from interfering in our free elections than stopping Russians. Protecting president Trump is job one.If thinking that non- citizens should have the same fundamental human rights as citizens. I plead guilty.
    Last edited by DavidSF; 4 weeks ago.

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    • #3
      Are you capable of expressing an opinion without your hatred or lies in it?

      IF so, I encourage you to start using that side of your brain. THIS time I only crossed out the irrelevant, hate-filled part. Next time, I delete.

      ?


      • #4
        Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
        Are you capable of expressing an opinion without your hatred or lies in it?

        IF so, I encourage you to start using that side of your brain. THIS time I only crossed out the irrelevant, hate-filled part. Next time, I delete.
        Don't worry about it there won't be a next time BYE BYE.

        ?


        • #5
          Okie Dokie... thank you!

          Its good that that a man acknowledges his limitations.

          07586954-FAD0-4F91-B73C-AB71DA6DC60E.jpeg

          ?


          • #6
            Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
            How exactly do you propose to do that.

            I confess I know so little on the technology side. I know those Diebold voting machines are hack-able and that somewhere down the line, George Soros owns the company that owns a company that has a branch that programs them. I don't know how hard or easy it would be to re-program them though. Willing to listen if someone knows a lot more about it and is willing to educate me.

            So we want to implement systems that prohibit outside interference with voting, either a technological or manual solution is likely here (although, as a practical matter, I do not see us moving back towards manual voting processes ... which a lot of precincts do still use anyway).

            Is it the verbal/media influence we think we can stop? I don't think so: First, because the democraps believe non-citizens should have the same rights as citizens so if that prevails, we won't be able to tell Russian to not air that ad (or whatever). Maybe "Fake News" is the culprit: But how are you going to either ferret the fake from the real; or how are you going to somehow penalize anyone for writing something that really is fake news without violating their first amendment rights? (you can't).

            Let's say for the moment we all agree we don't want Russians or anyone else interfering with our "free" elections.

            How do you suggest we go about that?

            Well, in Germany it is the manual way. Every citizen has a mandatory ID with a personalized code that only exists once. And everyone gets a personalized notification in the mail. And only people who show up with their ID AND this notification ( the codes need to match) are allowed to vote. Additionally votes are counted exclusively by hand. By representatives of ALL parties participating. Together. Germany is a high tech country, but there is wide agreement to use as little technology as possible in the election process. No such thing is ever totally safe from fraud, but it is a reasonable try.
            Disinformation campaigns, attempts to fuel tensions ( also involving hacks, leaks etc) or "false flag" ads f.e. are another matter. But while these usually exploit real problems ( such as political partisanship, corruption, policy crises etc.) none of us, wherever in the world is powerless against that, even if we cant change the politics. Using our brain, trying to cut through the bullshit, not to buy into every cooked up hysteria, not to confuse pose and politics, facts and fiction, usually helps enormously. Even if its just within our own little circle....

            ?


            • #7
              Originally posted by Voland View Post
              Well, in Germany it is the manual way. Every citizen has a mandatory ID with a personalized code that only exists once. And everyone gets a personalized notification in the mail. And only people who show up with their ID AND this notification ( the codes need to match) are allowed to vote. Additionally votes are counted exclusively by hand. By representatives of ALL parties participating. Together. Germany is a high tech country, but there is wide agreement to use as little technology as possible in the election process. No such thing is ever totally safe from fraud, but it is a reasonable try.
              Disinformation campaigns, attempts to fuel tensions ( also involving hacks, leaks etc) or "false flag" ads f.e. are another matter. But while these usually exploit real problems ( such as political partisanship, corruption, policy crises etc.) none of us, wherever in the world is powerless against that, even if we cant change the politics. Using our brain, trying to cut through the bullshit, not to buy into every cooked up hysteria, not to confuse pose and politics, facts and fiction, usually helps enormously. Even if its just within our own little circle....
              That is a good strategy I think.

              If one doesn't want his/her computer hacked, one doesn't connect it to the WWW.

              If we don't want our elections - or other things - hacked, keep them separate and away from the WWW.

              The WWW is a "security risk" and it always will be.

              If the people in govt. STILL aren't aware of this, they do not belong in govt at all !

              ?


              • #8
                Originally posted by Voland View Post


                Well, in Germany it is the manual way. Every citizen has a mandatory ID with a personalized code that only exists once. And everyone gets a personalized notification in the mail. And only people who show up with their ID AND this notification ( the codes need to match) are allowed to vote. Additionally votes are counted exclusively by hand. By representatives of ALL parties participating. Together. Germany is a high tech country, but there is wide agreement to use as little technology as possible in the election process. No such thing is ever totally safe from fraud, but it is a reasonable try.
                Disinformation campaigns, attempts to fuel tensions ( also involving hacks, leaks etc) or "false flag" ads f.e. are another matter. But while these usually exploit real problems ( such as political partisanship, corruption, policy crises etc.) none of us, wherever in the world is powerless against that, even if we cant change the politics. Using our brain, trying to cut through the bullshit, not to buy into every cooked up hysteria, not to confuse pose and politics, facts and fiction, usually helps enormously. Even if its just within our own little circle....
                As much as I really like that strategy, I can almost guarantee the liberals, here, would bleat like a stuck goat: Their complain would be "republicans" are trying to deny minorities their constitutionally protected vote because minorities don't get mail regularly (or similar).

                I also want something done about that disinformation you were talking about.

                ?


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
                  Are you capable of expressing an opinion without your hatred or lies in it?

                  IF so, I encourage you to start using that side of your brain. THIS time I only crossed out the irrelevant, hate-filled part. Next time, I delete.
                  Would you be so kind as to point out which rule on this board that rover violated that you would threaten to delete his post?

                  I'm asking because I don't want to commit the same error.

                  ?


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HawkeyeDJ View Post

                    Would you be so kind as to point out which rule on this board that rover violated that you would threaten to delete his post?

                    I'm asking because I don't want to commit the same error.
                    #2 and #26 (#26 is not a violation, but a moderators direction)

                    ?


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DavidSF View Post



                      I also want something done about that disinformation you were talking about.

                      In St.Petersburg I once talked to a guy who had worked in the local administration at the same time that a certain Wladimir Putin made his first babysteps in politics. He said everyone was afraid of Putin. Not because any terrific deeds were ever directly linked to him,
                      but because people were convinced that he could, if he wanted....and you wouldnt even now.....
                      This a plan to splinter rivals worthy of an ex-KGB operative. And also an admission of weakness. Russia has a military budget of around 60 billion, that is around 10 % that of the US and around 20 % that of the main EU states. Most of its armed forces are in miserable shape, with the exception of some elite units, intelligence/cyber units and those charged with maintaining the nuclear weapons. That makes "hard" geopolitics difficult.
                      Russia exports few items except oil/gas and weapons, and the opportunity to use the oil/gas revenues for lifting up the domestic economy ( such as investing intelligently) has been largely squandered. Corruption is immense ( and although Americans tend to ignore that) Putin also faces domestic opposition ( such as from the urban middle class or from students).
                      Yet Putin plays a bad hand well by driving wedges between his potential opponents, exploiting internal divisions ( Republicans concluding that "Democrats" were hacked and not the US electoral process ? European far-rightists recieving pockets full of russian money ?). Allegations of rape and lootings committed by NATO soldiers in the baltic states that were found to have originated on russian newssites etc.?
                      Also in real conflicts that he is engaged in Putin demonstrates that sense of realism. Neither in Ukraine nor in Syria he is capable of establishing complete military dominance. Yet he keeps these conflicts rumbling along enough to ensure himself a seat at the table when an indespensable peacemaker (with russian interests in mind ) is needed.
                      The first step to do something about Putins campaigns is to stop misreading him. This is not about any particular politicians or parties ( Putin has no loyalties except making "Russia great again) and it is a political strategy.
                      And it is not even necessary to actually win, it is often enough to be the talk in town. That enough Americans believe in a Trump/Russia collusion, even if that is unproven makes Putin the guy laughing on the sidelines, even if his role would turn out to be vastly exaggerated. That is why clearing these events up is so crucially important......

                      Last edited by Voland; 4 weeks ago.

                      ?


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Voland View Post


                        In St.Petersburg I once talked to a guy who had worked in the local administration at the same time that a certain Wladimir Putin made his first babysteps in politics. He said everyone was afraid of Putin. Not because any terrific deeds were ever directly linked to him,
                        but because people were convinced that he could, if he wanted....and you wouldnt even now.....
                        This a plan to splinter rivals worthy of an ex-KGB operative. And also an admission of weakness. Russia has a military budget of around 60 billion, that is around 10 % that of the US and around 20 % that of the main EU states. Most of its armed forces are in miserable shape, with the exception of some elite units, intelligence/cyber units and those charged with maintaining the nuclear weapons. That makes "hard" geopolitics difficult.
                        Russia exports few items except oil/gas and weapons, and the opportunity to use the oil/gas revenues for lifting up the domestic economy ( such as investing intelligently) has been largely squandered. Corruption is immense ( and although Americans tend to ignore that) Putin also faces domestic opposition ( such as from the urban middle class or from students).
                        Yet Putin plays a bad hand well by driving wedges between his potential opponents, exploiting internal divisions ( Republicans concluding that "Democrats" were hacked and not the US electoral process ? European far-rightists recieving pockets full of russian money ?). Allegations of rape and lootings committed by NATO soldiers in the baltic states that were found to have originated on russian newssites etc.?
                        Also in real conflicts that he is engaged in Putin demonstrates that sense of realism. Neither in Ukraine nor in Syria he is capable of establishing complete military dominance. Yet he keeps these conflicts rumbling along enough to ensure himself a seat at the table when an indespensable peacemaker (with russian interests in mind ) is needed.
                        The first step to do something about Putins campaigns is to stop misreading him. This is not about any particular politicians or parties ( Putin has no loyalties except making "Russia great again) and it is a political strategy.
                        And it is not even necessary to actually win, it is often enough to be the talk in town. That enough Americans believe in a Trump/Russia collusion, even if that is unproven makes Putin the guy laughing on the sidelines, even if his role would turn out to be vastly exaggerated. That is why clearing these events up is so crucially important......
                        Russia has a GDP that is about the size of NYstate's That's why it was so disturbing to watch Trump kowtowing to a third rate power.

                        ?


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by redrover View Post

                          Russia has a GDP that is about the size of NYstate's That's why it was so disturbing to watch Trump kowtowing to a third rate power.

                          Well, in 1996 Boris Yeltsin was president of Russia, a guy that most Russians remember as a drunken fool overseeing the economical, social and political implosion of his country. Prior to the 1996 campaign Yeltsin had approval ratings under 10 %, yet somehow he managed to win another term. And Russians see it as general knowledge , which they can be hardly blamed for, that it was the Clinton administration that considerably secured Yeltsins victory. They placed experienced american campaign managers in Moscow to aid the Yeltsin campaign, they "organized" a generous IMF loan (that largely paid for Yeltsins campaign), and they closed two eyes to allegations of voter fraud. Example : In Chechnya, a region with around half a million people one million voted (!) and almost all for Yeltsin, in spite of the war in the region that Yeltsin led. The chaos of the Yeltsin years in the end paved the way for Putin by the way.
                          Why that does matter ? Because it opens the question if Russias interference in the 2016 campaign broke principles that Americans expect their country to uphold ( although it evidently didnt for decades) or wether the problem is that they did it--in America :



                          https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ddling/565538/





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                          • #14
                            Oh, and since we are talking about election meddlling : Stephen Bannon is moving to Europe. His plan is apparently to hijack the elections to the European Parliament 2019 with a "nationalist supergroup". His declared goal is further to topple Merkel and Macron and to crush the EU. Officially independent of the Trump administration, but obviously noone HAS to believe that.
                            Bannons platform will be based in Brussels, in the vicinity of the headquarters of NATO and EU and will be dubbed "The movement". It is supposed to act as a hub for nationalist parties, organize funding, pool expertise, write policy proposals, commission polling etc.
                            Personally I am fairly certain that Bannons new project will end up as a paper tiger, though with the potential to further strain transatlantic relations. "My country first" nationalists rarely cooperate well with other "my country first" nationalists, which is not a question of better funding. European far-righties are usually pro-russian and anti-american as a matter of fact. Putin has been in that market a few years longer than Bannon. Furthermore : To seriously increase their share of the vote ( far-right parties usually poll at 10/15 % ) they would need to tap the political center. Yet sailing under Trump/Bannons banner is a certain loosing strategy for that in Europe. But they might accept generous funding of course



                            https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside...right?ref=wrap

                            https://www.dw.com/en/steve-bannon-p...ght/a-44774972

                            https://www.politico.eu/article/stev...p-in-brussels/


                            Trump /Bannons attacks on the EU and on Merkel in particular will much rather lead to the opposite effect : To rally vast parts of the public behind them :


                            https://www.ft.com/content/7bb701f4-...7-1e1a0846c475

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                            • #15
                              I don't understand why we should be concerned with Bannon and I'm quite certain the EU isn't losing any sleep over him.

                              He is all but persona non grata here, which might explain why he is planning a move to Europe, now that I think about it. He did some good stuff for the Trump White House, but for the last year or so, he's done nothing but promote nationalism, if not "white" nationalism.

                              Simply put, everyone here (and everyone everywhere should) just shrugs their shoulders any time Bannon's name comes up.

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