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Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

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  • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

    Originally posted by John Drake View Post
    So, the guy saying: "gimme ALL your money and MAYBE I'll let you have some back, even though the reason we're in trouble now is that I've stubbornly done the exact opposite even when it hurts ME as well, and provided that we can loot enough from other countries even though that's not been working and really never did" is beaten by the guy saying "I'll let you have some money, so we can both make do, but we both have to be responsible about it"

    Whoda thunk
    Please flush that load and, then, put the seat down so others can use it.

    (̅_̅_̅(̅(̅_̅_̅_̅_̅_̅̅()ڪ

    Originally posted by goober View Post
    When I was canvassing in a battleground state, I saw no equivalent effort from Romney or the GOP.
    I'm sure there was an effort, but it was considerably smaller and not as well organized.
    I think this was probably true in every battleground state, Romney depended on enthusiasm, Obama depended on organization.
    And that tells a bigger story, Romney's economic plan depended on enthusiasm to move the economy, Obama depends on an organized effort to recover the economy.
    An organized effort is slow and cumbersome, but enthusiasm is vaporware, it just doesn't do the job.
    Romney depended on enthusiasm in New Hampshire, Virginia, Florida, Colorado, Pennsylvania, Iowa and Ohio, Obama depended on people going door to door, leaving door hangers, talking to voters, identifying Obama voters, making sure Obama voters had rides to the polls, making sure Obama voters understood that the country was depending on them to do their part. If you look at the numbers, you will see that there were large numbers of people who didn't vote, in those numbers there were enough Romney voters to give him every swing state, but it was the Obama people, visiting the sometime voters, that got the vote out, we visited people who would most likely vote for Obama, but there was a real question about whether they would vote, so we reached out and touched them, because that increases the number that votes.
    That same grass roots outreach delivered Senate seats and house seats, not enough to reclaim the House, but the effort was concentrated in swing states, and Democrats did very well in Swing states, because we got Democrats to the polls.
    This is two elections that the Democrats have taken with a superior ground game, prior to that Bush took two elections with a superior ground game.
    The big lesson is that the electorate is split evenly, and the best ground game has won 3 of the last 4 elections, 2008 wasn't close enough for ground game to matter, but it made slight Obama advantage into a huge advantage in 2008.
    This is like deja vu, only different... Clinton did almost nothing for 7 of his 8 years. Finally, he signs a balanced BUDGET before passing it off to Bush ... and you guys are all high-fiving, proclaiming his economic genius.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

      Originally posted by darth omar View Post
      I agree that Republicans need to pick up more Hispanics and what not. Where I disagree is that they should forsake their principles in doing it.

      Are only middle-aged white guys [what a tired stereotype, btw] concerned about jobs and the economy?
      No, many groups are concerned about jobs and economy. The problem for the Republicans are that the most vocal group, the far right, are the voice of the party right now. They are the ones being catered to and while many might agree with them on economic policy, they sure as hell don´t agree with them on social issues and what is seen, especially by Latinos, as an unfair targeting of that group on immigration policy.

      As for principles, nobody has to forsake anything. It just means, that if a party is not willing to evolve with the changing demographic setup, then they have to accept not getting elected and possibly becoming obsolete in a few decades, if their principles become that much out of touch with a vast majority of the electorate.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Originally posted by Danny View Post
        Where is tsquare? He was adamant in predicting a Romney landslide and I would like to get his take on the country's rebuke of his positions.
        A special breed of fact free ignorance only hurts the political process and deserves to be called out. Hopefully the House GOP (whom displayed the same) will realize their error and actually start working to help the country.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • As for Romney I think the lesson is this: You can spend your entire life dodging taxes and sticking it to the American middle class or you can be president. Not both.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

            Originally posted by Danny View Post
            A special breed of fact free ignorance only hurts the political process and deserves to be called out. Hopefully the House GOP (whom displayed the same) will realize their error and actually start working to help the country.
            The funny thing here is that you think yourself so much different and so much better. I hate to tell you this, Danny, but you are just as partisan and just as resistant to facts that you don't want to like.

            How many times did it take before you finally admitted that the majority of the jobs added under the Obama administration were low-wage jobs? 5? 10? I lost count, to be honest.

            That's just one example of you ignoring facts when they conflict with your hardcore partisan ideology.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • As for the polls, it seems Gallup's likely voter model belongs in the trash and should never be referenced again. You also need to add a 2 pt swing to the dems if you want to consider Ramussen a well. In my opinion any poll with such a consistent bias (left or right) is garbage. It serves nobody's interest.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Originally posted by MattInFla View Post
                The funny thing here is that you think yourself so much different and so much better. I hate to tell you this, Danny, but you are just as partisan and just as resistant to facts that you don't want to like.

                How many times did it take before you finally admitted that the majority of the jobs added under the Obama administration were low-wage jobs? 5? 10? I lost count, to be honest.

                That's just one example of you ignoring facts when they conflict with your hardcore partisan ideology.
                I didn't deny anything. It wasn't important to the argument but I finally relented to show you that I've been open to all arguments when warranted. I'm not like you characterize.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                  Originally posted by Danny View Post
                  As for Romney I think the lesson is this: You can spend your entire life dodging taxes and sticking it to the American middle class or you can be president. Not both.
                  So far as I know no one has proved Romney lied on his taxes, misrepresented income, or is guilty of some tax law being broken. Last I knew the IRS is not knocking on his door demanding audits of every handful of mud Democrats have thrown on Romney's tax rate (note, rarely the actual amount being discussed.) Romney's returns seem to show he followed whatever applicable tax law existed at the time. In this respect and for this subject only, the lesson learned is class warfare worked with those that ignore facts for partisan rhetoric on what one should pay in opinion vs. the many ways one has to legally lower an effective tax rate without breaking a single law. Romney lost for many reasons, class warfare was just one of many. For you to pin it on this shows you bought into the same rhetoric you claim only exists on the other side of the isle.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                    Originally posted by Good1 View Post
                    This is like deja vu, only different... Clinton did almost nothing for 7 of his 8 years. Finally, he signs a balanced BUDGET before passing it off to Bush ... and you guys are all high-fiving, proclaiming his economic genius.
                    In my universe, Clinton did something immediately on taking office, he raised taxes on the wealthy (retroactive to the 1st of 1993) and lowered taxes on some selected lower middle class groups. This reversed the trend to higher deficits, and the deficit began to drop, which lowered interest rates, which stimulated the economy.
                    A couple of years later the Democrats lost congress, because of this act of true political courage, but by 1996 it was clear that Clinton had lead the nation out of the deep economic devastation of the Reagan-Bush years. Clinton's balanced policies created 4 years of surplus, The GOP regained control in 2001, turned the Clinton surpluses into record deficits, and plunged the nation into deep recession.
                    At least that's what happened in my universe.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                      Originally posted by Danny View Post
                      I didn't deny anything. It wasn't important to the argument but I finally relented to show you that I've been open to all arguments when warranted. I'm not like you characterize.
                      Seriously, Danny? Are you really going to claim you never denied that? Really?

                      Trust me, Danny, you really are hyper partisan. Have you forgotten your demands that Republicans be silent after the 2008 election? Your demands that the Senate be disbanded? You are truly among the most partisan people here, IMHO. And I say that as a guy who had a lot of respect for you back before you went off the deep end. I honestly keep hoping for the old Danny to return, because he was a very reasonable guy who considered actual positions. These days, it is extremely hard to get you to admit that Obama's policies or actions have any faults whatsoever. On the rare occasions that you do admit that, you immediately offer an excuse as well.

                      Matt

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                        Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                        So far as I know no one has proved Romney lied on his taxes, misrepresented income, or is guilty of some tax law being broken. Last I knew the IRS is not knocking on his door demanding audits of every handful of mud Democrats have thrown on Romney's tax rate (note, rarely the actual amount being discussed.) Romney's returns seem to show he followed whatever applicable tax law existed at the time. In this respect and for this subject only, the lesson learned is class warfare worked with those that ignore facts for partisan rhetoric on what one should pay in opinion vs. the many ways one has to legally lower an effective tax rate without breaking a single law. Romney lost for many reasons, class warfare was just one of many. For you to pin it on this shows you bought into the same rhetoric you claim only exists on the other side of the isle.
                        No one is saying Romney cheated on his taxes, they are saying that the tax laws are so slanted so that Romney only had to pay a 9% effective rate on 20 million in income for 2011.
                        We know that Romney has over 100 million in his IRA, that's about half his net worth that he hasn't paid any taxes on.
                        And we know that he won't show people his tax returns from before 2010, which leads one to believe that there is something there that might be detrimental to him or his platform, which is that the wealthy should pay less taxes.
                        Now I assume he has followed the law to the letter, it's not Romney, it's the law I have a problem with.
                        Why should the 400 people with the largest incomes in the United States pay an average effective tax rate of 16%?

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                          Originally posted by goober View Post
                          No one is saying Romney cheated on his taxes, they are saying that the tax laws are so slanted so that Romney only had to pay a 9% effective rate on 20 million in income for 2011.
                          We know that Romney has over 100 million in his IRA, that's about half his net worth that he hasn't paid any taxes on.
                          And we know that he won't show people his tax returns from before 2010, which leads one to believe that there is something there that might be detrimental to him or his platform, which is that the wealthy should pay less taxes.
                          Now I assume he has followed the law to the letter, it's not Romney, it's the law I have a problem with.
                          Why should the 400 people with the largest incomes in the United States pay an average effective tax rate of 16%?
                          And that is a fine debate to have I agree, but pinning that on Romney showed people are not thinking clearly about why those rates fell to what they are. When it comes to Danny, my point is proven by "dodged taxes" in his comments.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                            Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                            The polls far out from the election are meant to sway opinion, not measure it. Once the election nears, they start to get more accurate because the pollsters get paid based on how accurate their final guesses are.
                            I disagree, the reputable polling agencies want to have their results as accurate as possible because that accuracy is important to the campaigns. Decisions on where to allocate time and resources for example are based on polling data.

                            Now the spin that Fucks News and others put on the polling data is another thing entirely.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                              Originally posted by goober View Post
                              No one is saying Romney cheated on his taxes, they are saying that the tax laws are so slanted so that Romney only had to pay a 9% effective rate on 20 million in income for 2011.
                              Nobody reasonable is saying that. Danny, OTOH, has a history of outlandish claims. Remember the "Romney is a felon" bit?

                              Originally posted by goober View Post
                              We know that Romney has over 100 million in his IRA, that's about half his net worth that he hasn't paid any taxes on.
                              Does ANYONE pay takes on their IRA prior to taking disbursements?

                              Originally posted by goober View Post
                              And we know that he won't show people his tax returns from before 2010, which leads one to believe that there is something there that might be detrimental to him or his platform, which is that the wealthy should pay less taxes.
                              Now I assume he has followed the law to the letter, it's not Romney, it's the law I have a problem with.
                              Why should the 400 people with the largest incomes in the United States pay an average effective tax rate of 16%?
                              I agree with you about the effective tax rate issue. We need a vastly simplified tax code without all the loopholes and shelters we currently have.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?


                              • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                                And once again the American people surprise those who would mean to oppress them. Fear, hatred of women, racism, and anger were failing strategies of a dying political party that moves even further to the fringe in an attempt to woo the last bastions of those who made it once powerful, but who are now dying off. This strategy, of alienating immigrants, the educated, and those of moderate means in favor of religious fundamentalists (one wonders when the Taliban will be actively recruited to the GOP ranks) will ultimately be the failing of the Republican Party, and what was once the Whigs will transform again from the Republicans into something else. Hopefully it will be something with a sense of sanity, intelligence, and moderation in its thinking, because that is what the country needs - not more extremism and hatred.

                                Congratulations to Mr. Obama, to states like New Hampshire, which not only went Blue, but now has an all-female Congressional delegation and Governor. That speaks well to the rejection of Republican fear- and hate-mongering, and the trivialization of issues like rape. Perhaps the conservatives will wake up and redirect themselves to something more productive for America, but somehow I doubt it. This isn't a football game where the winner takes all and the loser gets nothing. We're all in this together, trying to get ahead together. When your fellow Americans aren't getting ahead, it's not time to enact policies to make sure you pound the last nail in the coffin. And, if you call yourself an American, you sure as hell don't do things to prevent other Americans from voting.

                                America now sits with huge decisions to make. Some are going to push very hard against compromise and cooperation, all in the name of politics. I say that these are the worst kinds of traitors. Being in a minority position doesn't mean that you get to dictate every decision. It means that you have to learn to pick a few battles, but ultimately compromise for the good of the nation, because that is what it is all about.

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