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Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

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  • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

    Originally posted by Jefe View Post
    Yeah, that's not what he was implying.
    Ok then, what was he implying?

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

      Originally posted by Chloe View Post
      This is an argument that one day we need to have on its own merits as to why people vote against their own self interests. I can support the fiscal and other forms of liberalism in your state as it does coincide with a lot of Christ's teachings but the way RC's vote for Democrats in the NE is comparable to Jews voting for Hitler. But yeah this is a thread for its own merits as Pete wants to hash out this whole "vote against your own self interests" theory in regards to poor people living in trailers in the south and blacks who have been labelled as house negros by everyone so for now we can let this topic of the election return back to its topic : which is of course libertarian philosophy / the role of government, by the looks of it.
      Liberal politics began with the Irish Catholics in Boston, the first place on earth where Irish Catholics experienced democracy.
      And the overriding political narrative, was the story about the great famine, about a million people starving to death, while the government did nothing.
      If that doesn't make a compelling argument for government that actively seeks to improve the lot of it's citizens, I don't know what could.
      And Catholic voters were social justice voters, look at Rerum Novarum, the 1895 encyclical that said that people had the right to work, to decent wages, to a secure retirement, to medical care, it was Rerum Novarum that FDR translated into the New Deal. Asked to reject Rerum Novarum, Saint Pius X affirmed it instead.


      Abortion is a johnny come lately wedge issue. You have to throw out 95% of Catholic teachings to vote based on abortion.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

        Originally posted by goober View Post
        Liberal politics began with the Irish Catholics in Boston, the first place on earth where Irish Catholics experienced democracy.
        And the overriding political narrative, was the story about the great famine, about a million people starving to death, while the government did nothing.
        If that doesn't make a compelling argument for government that actively seeks to improve the lot of it's citizens, I don't know what could.
        And Catholic voters were social justice voters, look at Rerum Novarum, the 1895 encyclical that said that people had the right to work, to decent wages, to a secure retirement, to medical care, it was Rerum Novarum that FDR translated into the New Deal. Asked to reject Rerum Novarum, Saint Pius X affirmed it instead.


        Abortion is a johnny come lately wedge issue. You have to throw out 95% of Catholic teachings to vote based on abortion.
        That Goober, was an excellent post...the last line is my point of contention with it, but i can embrace all the rest of the post (work, healthcare, ending f\mine etc) and that is why i keep saying that to form this religious coalition conservatives have to accept the liberal teachings of Christ and from there we can all move forward and ahead. With all of that, the issue of abortion becomes moot and the faster they get to that stage of accepting bigger government, welfare, and hand outs, the faster the issue of abortion comes to the forefront and is outlawed by what would be a very pro life country in the end. Pretty much like Ireland.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

          Originally posted by ericams2786 View Post
          Ok then, what was he implying?
          *sigh* OK, I'll spell it out for you.

          Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
          Agreed. Th same way that the Democrats should kick out their far left loons. The moderates that would be left would be in a position to actually work out some compromises and get something done for a change.
          This conversation was clearly about the House & Senate, making Federal policy and law, etc., as opposed to the obstructionism and gridlock that has been the norm for quite a while now. Wouldn't it be nice if our Washington lawmakers actually did something for a change?

          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
          What would you have the government do. All I want them to do is get the heck out of the way.
          This is OldmanDan, commenting how he'd rather they didn't do anything, presumeably because they never actually do anything good (which is a pretty good point). I assumed that when he said "All I want them to do is get the heck out of the way", he was talking about the things that he fequently complains about when it comes to the federal government, like the EPA with their heavy handed "business killing" practices, and various other government agencies creating a "nanny state".

          Are you with me so far? Good.

          Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
          Right, how would you like them to get out of the way?
          What exactly are they doing that hinders you from doing whatever you want?
          Here, Peter is asking OldMandan for specifics about what the government is holding him back from doing. He wasn't trying to say that you can "do anything you want", he wanted to know what Oldmandan was being hindered from doing.

          That's where you went off on your tangent. I hope this helps.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

            Christ taught charity and caring for your neighbors. He never taught stealing from one and giving to another in exchange for a vote. Taxes are in no way charitable giving.
            Last edited by OldmanDan; 11-08-2012, 10:09 AM.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

              Originally posted by goober View Post
              Liberal politics began with the Irish Catholics in Boston, the first place on earth where Irish Catholics experienced democracy.
              And the overriding political narrative, was the story about the great famine, about a million people starving to death, while the government did nothing.
              If that doesn't make a compelling argument for government that actively seeks to improve the lot of it's citizens, I don't know what could.
              And Catholic voters were social justice voters, look at Rerum Novarum, the 1895 encyclical that said that people had the right to work, to decent wages, to a secure retirement, to medical care, it was Rerum Novarum that FDR translated into the New Deal. Asked to reject Rerum Novarum, Saint Pius X affirmed it instead.


              Abortion is a johnny come lately wedge issue. You have to throw out 95% of Catholic teachings to vote based on abortion.
              So in other words you believe that the US should follow that same path as the Western European democracies? Just asking.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                Little late to the party but---------->Congratulations to Mr Obama, his ground troops, and all the democrats on here who supported him. Good job! The republicans could learn something from your ground game.

                Enjoy the next 4 years!

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                  Originally posted by Jefe View Post
                  *sigh* OK, I'll spell it out for you.



                  This conversation was clearly about the House & Senate, making Federal policy and law, etc., as opposed to the obstructionism and gridlock that has been the norm for quite a while now. Wouldn't it be nice if our Washington lawmakers actually did something for a change?



                  This is OldmanDan, commenting how he'd rather they didn't do anything, presumeably because they never actually do anything good (which is a pretty good point). I assumed that when he said "All I want them to do is get the heck out of the way", he was talking about the things that he fequently complains about when it comes to the federal government, like the EPA with their heavy handed "business killing" practices, and various other government agencies creating a "nanny state".

                  Are you with me so far? Good.



                  Here, Peter is asking OldMandan for specifics about what the government is holding him back from doing. He wasn't trying to say that you can "do anything you want", he wanted to know what Oldmandan was being hindered from doing.

                  That's where you went off on your tangent. I hope this helps.
                  And I gave some damn specifics didn't I? Once again, my list was a smattering of Federal, State, and city laws that restrict you from doing what you want to do. I'm sure many of OMD's beliefs about what should get out of his way are either on that list or related to something on it. Again, I provided a specific list to answer Peter's question. YOU RESPONDED TO MY POST INITIALLY, not the other way around. I didn't go on any damn tangents, nor did I imply any of the bullshit you responsed to my post with. I simply answered a question that was most definitely in the context of what was being talked about. Or I am I to believe for instance that there are no Federal Drug laws that impede an individual from doing what they want in their life?

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                    Originally posted by Jefe View Post
                    *sigh* OK, I'll spell it out for you.



                    This conversation was clearly about the House & Senate, making Federal policy and law, etc., as opposed to the obstructionism and gridlock that has been the norm for quite a while now. Wouldn't it be nice if our Washington lawmakers actually did something for a change?
                    Yes. Certainly.

                    Originally posted by Jefe View Post
                    This is OldmanDan, commenting how he'd rather they didn't do anything, presumeably because they never actually do anything good (which is a pretty good point). I assumed that when he said "All I want them to do is get the heck out of the way", he was talking about the things that he fequently complains about when it comes to the federal government, like the EPA with their heavy handed "business killing" practices, and various other government agencies creating a "nanny state".
                    Yup. And Yup.

                    Originally posted by Jefe View Post
                    Are you with me so far? Good.



                    Here, Peter is asking OldMandan for specifics about what the government is holding him back from doing. He wasn't trying to say that you can "do anything you want", he wanted to know what Oldmandan was being hindered from doing.

                    That's where you went off on your tangent. I hope this helps.
                    Thanks Jefe. A good summary.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                      Originally posted by Imawhosure View Post
                      Little late to the party but---------->Congratulations to Mr Obama, his ground troops, and all the democrats on here who supported him. Good job! The republicans could learn something from your ground game.

                      Enjoy the next 4 years!
                      We certainly will!...And at least the next 4...I was very amused that Ryan was posting ads for his seat in Congress...Covering his ass, I guess...Not much faith the the Romney-Ryan ticket it seems...

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                        Originally posted by ericams2786 View Post
                        And I gave some damn specifics didn't I? Once again, my list was a smattering of Federal, State, and city laws that restrict you from doing what you want to do. I'm sure many of OMD's beliefs about what should get out of his way are either on that list or related to something on it. Again, I provided a specific list to answer Peter's question. YOU RESPONDED TO MY POST INITIALLY, not the other way around. I didn't go on any damn tangents, nor did I imply any of the bullshit you responsed to my post with. I simply answered a question that was most definitely in the context of what was being talked about. Or I am I to believe for instance that there are no Federal Drug laws that impede an individual from doing what they want in their life?
                        It was your inclusion of things like lemonade stands, parking spots, and front yard gardens that left me scratching my head. I don't know why you'd include those things on a list of FEDERAL laws, when the conversation was clearly about the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                          Originally posted by ericams2786 View Post
                          No I did not. Here is the exact exchange within the conversation:

                          Oldmandan:

                          "What would you have the government do. All I want them to do is get the heck out of the way."

                          Peter:

                          "Right, how would you like them to get out of the way?
                          What exactly are they doing that hinders you from doing whatever you want?"

                          Again, read it:

                          "Right, how would you like them to get out of the way?
                          What exactly are they doing that hinders you from doing whatever you want?"

                          To me, this looks like Peter is implying that one can simply do whatever in the hell one wants to do with no government interference.

                          I responded with a list, that once again does not claim any authority on the rightness or wrongness or the necessity of or lack there of, of anything on that list. My list simply said "hey yeah there are restrictions on doing "whatever you want"".

                          And again, in my post (re-read the damn thing) I never claimed all that shit was Federal laws. It is a mixture of both. Then again, as clearly quoted above, neither OMD or Peter made a distinction between Federal or State governments, and neither did I. Even if OMD and Peter HAD made a difference, it still does not matter because THE BASIC PREMISE OF WHAT I WAS SAYING IS STILL TRUE: THE GOVERNMENT ERECTS OBSTACLES TO DOING 'WHATEVER YOU WANT"
                          I'm back from work and I see my question has lead to more debate than I expected.
                          I wasn't on about things like speed limits or having to send your kids to school as those things are laws pretty much everywhere.

                          I was mainly on about the big stuff and the US already has quite a few freedoms that many other countries envy. From the outside looking in it seems like you don't have much to moan about.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                            Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                            I'm back from work and I see my question has lead to more debate than I expected.
                            I wasn't on about things like speed limits or having to send your kids to school as those things are laws pretty much everywhere.

                            I was mainly on about the big stuff and the US already has quite a few freedoms that many other countries envy. From the outside looking in it seems like you don't have much to moan about.
                            Seems like your wrong if you take the totality of the Federal regulatory and legal structure together. If you then combine that with many State and local ordinances, you get to a situation that largely does resemble many other countries, minus perhaps a few things. However, many of the freedoms we seem to have in this country we really don't (largely as a result of many really bad bills that have passed over the past decade or so) and many others are hanging on by a thread, just waiting for the right "emergency" to be taken away. Don't fool yourself into believing the media and the paradigm you think is correct: the US might seem like the land of the free but it is much more authoritarian than you might think...and more fascist to boot.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                              Originally posted by Jefe View Post
                              It was your inclusion of things like lemonade stands, parking spots, and front yard gardens that left me scratching my head. I don't know why you'd include those things on a list of FEDERAL laws, when the conversation was clearly about the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
                              AGAIN, my list was not exclusively a Federal list. AGAIN I never claimed as much. AGAIN for the 1000th fucking time, neither OMD or Peter specified which "government" they were talking about. In this country however, given the "federal" nature of our union, if you have certain freedoms taken away at the Federal level, certain other ones taken away at the State level, then still more at the local level YOU BY NO MEANS ARE UNIMPEDED TO DO 'WHATEVER YOU WANT WITH YOUR LIFE".

                              In fact, it matters not what "government" we are talking about, not only because the other two did not make a distinction, but because the very thing I was responding to was "tell me what the government does to get in the way of you doing what you want." It doesn't matter what level of government you are talking about, AN OBSTACLE TO YOU LIVING YOUR LIFE THE WAY YOU WANT IS AN OBSTACLE TO YOU DOING WHAT YOU WANT, doesn't matter what level your dealing with. Hence why I listed exampes from all three. When taken in totality, you have almost no freedom to "do what you want" but even just adjusting that list to the Federal level, you still aren't free to "do what you want" - which was the point of my post.

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                              • Re: Election Day 2012 - Results Discussion Thread

                                Originally posted by ericams2786 View Post
                                Seems like your wrong if you take the totality of the Federal regulatory and legal structure together. If you then combine that with many State and local ordinances, you get to a situation that largely does resemble many other countries, minus perhaps a few things. However, many of the freedoms we seem to have in this country we really don't (largely as a result of many really bad bills that have passed over the past decade or so) and many others are hanging on by a thread, just waiting for the right "emergency" to be taken away. Don't fool yourself into believing the media and the paradigm you think is correct: the US might seem like the land of the free but it is much more authoritarian than you might think...and more fascist to boot.
                                Freedom as it is now is an illusion to keep the slaves from rising up and destroying their masters. The perfect slave is the slave who thinks he's/she's free.

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