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What happens when you restrict the rights of people with Gun Control, Multiple Nations involved.

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  • What happens when you restrict the rights of people with Gun Control, Multiple Nations involved.

    http://reason.com/archives/2012/12/2...-bred-defian/1

    Good article from reason about the writer's foray into the black market of gun buying, something generational for his family, who arrived in new york as the gun toting immigrants the Sullivan Act was intended to remove the rights of. He talks about trying to go through the legal process, and he talks about going through the illegal process. Plenty of stats on gun ownership, legal and not, and for multiple nations.
    I was mostly going to leave this here as a resource, since of the remaining posters here only Peter and Danny are gun control fans, but if anyone wants to discuss it I'm game.

  • #2
    The gun in the hands of "those people" is always a bigger problem than folks own guns.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Yup. People forget the NRA was founded to KEEP guns in the hands of Blacks so they could protect themselves and their property from the Klan.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        Hey, thanks for the article. I learned something and gained some respect for the Europeans in the process. I thought all of them had timidly surrendered all of their guns, but it turns out there are people in Europe who feel nervous about giving away the only thing that gives them some equality and a right to defending ones life in a worst case scenario.

        Only gov't that stands to fear their own people take away or try to limit gun ownership to its citizens. When they began to try to take them away, its time to replace congressmen, or presidents. Tyrants need an unarmed public. And only tyrants would even think about taking the firearms of citizens. We hopefully will not forget that, but I dunno so much about that. I think as you can manufacture consent on the embracing of homosexuality as perfectly healthy, you can manufacture consent over time to make people believe they are less than human if they believe in owning weapons that can kill people. It's not as hard as you might think. Just look at how so few americans really know what is going on when it comes to our gov't and its treason upon all average Americans. They are ignored, are not represented at all, and they don't even know it. Since this is the fact, anything is possible when it comes to the future and firearms here in America, where the term Public Servant is an anachronism, and doesn't exist today. The servants appear to act like a multitude of little kings who only pay attention to the princes and princesses. Yeah, its a royal court of sorts. And peasants with guns are too dangerous to have around as the royals get even more royal.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          I know this doesn't mean much as I obviously have only my perspective but I've only known 1 person who owns a gun and he's highly registered and has to phone the police every time he goes out the house with the gun as he shoots rabbits. I know some may not believe this but guns just aren't an issue here and I wouldn't know where to get one even if I wanted one.

          Do some criminals have guns? Yeah most likely but the vast majority of people aren't criminals and don't own guns and don't want to.

          I just don't believe there are 4 million illegal guns in the UK and gun related incidents are still gladly rare and mostly restricted to certain less fortunate areas.
          Last edited by PeterUK75; 05-22-2015, 06:04 PM.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
            I know this doesn't mean much as I obviously have only my perspective but I've only known 1 person who owns a gun and he's highly registered and has to phone the police every time he goes out the house with the gun as he shoots rabbits. I know some may not believe this but guns just aren't an issue here and I wouldn't know where to get one even if I wanted one.

            Do some criminals have guns? Yeah most likely but the vast majority of people aren't criminals and don't own guns and don't want to.

            I just don't believe there are 4 million illegal guns in the UK and gun related incidents are still gladly rare and mostly restricted to certain less fortunate areas.
            And when I think of England, I think of fox hunters on horses, dressed up traditional fox hunting garb, and chasing some really nice fox hounds. I think of shotgunning birds in the Scottish Highlands, romantic visions of that sort of thing. I am dismayed to see that England has changed that much. You guys are losing English culture, which IMO is more important than a need to ban guns. But did you guys really ever have loads of guns in your cities, before you went so strict on gun ownership? I know your cops used to be gunless, just using sticks, which I always thought was brave, given our cops look like they are garbed up to go fight radical muslims in the mountains of Afghanistan.

            America is still close to an earlier time when guns were tools and were seen as a part of daily life. And many people, given the size of this nation live in areas where having a gun is essential, and wise. And these people cannot relate to the city folks who want to take all the guns away. I think the size of the nation, and the number who live in the country if not on the edge of a wilderness figures into how its people would feel about guns. Americans see it as a major right, and old time liberals like myself agree with them. Otherwise it would be like England and its fox hunting, and good traditions die because of the hysterical. These hysterical can really mess it up for others.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Sadly, the only interest I even have on this subject anymore is very simple.

              A gun is a physical item, no more no less.

              Unfortunately, there are always a few idiots that misuse them - people misuse pencils, cars, knives, scissors and baseball bats too - yet some think we need to "restrict" ownership of this one item, this gun thing.

              So dumb this "argument."

              You can have my guns only after you murder me of course.

              ... along with my pencils, car, knife, scissors and nice big oak axe handle.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                And when I think of England, I think of fox hunters on horses, dressed up traditional fox hunting garb, and chasing some really nice fox hounds. I think of shotgunning birds in the Scottish Highlands, romantic visions of that sort of thing. I am dismayed to see that England has changed that much. You guys are losing English culture, which IMO is more important than a need to ban guns. But did you guys really ever have loads of guns in your cities, before you went so strict on gun ownership? I know your cops used to be gunless, just using sticks, which I always thought was brave, given our cops look like they are garbed up to go fight radical muslims in the mountains of Afghanistan.

                America is still close to an earlier time when guns were tools and were seen as a part of daily life. And many people, given the size of this nation live in areas where having a gun is essential, and wise. And these people cannot relate to the city folks who want to take all the guns away. I think the size of the nation, and the number who live in the country if not on the edge of a wilderness figures into how its people would feel about guns. Americans see it as a major right, and old time liberals like myself agree with them. Otherwise it would be like England and its fox hunting, and good traditions die because of the hysterical. These hysterical can really mess it up for others.

                As far as I know Britain has never had a gun culture with mass gun ownership and the police still don't have guns although they do now have tazers(sp?). We have a few tactical police units and if you were at the recent London Olympics you may have seen quite a few of the army who were brought in to help secure the event as we are no strangers to terrorism at such events.

                The idea of gun ownership is honestly not a political issue here and no parties in the recent general election mentioned it at all so that should tell you something.

                Just so you know fox hunting still goes on but they changed to drag hunting instead where a real fox is not involved but they still have lots of dogs and horses and loads of rich people in hunting clothes and the new conservative government may even bring back full hunting if they can be bothered.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post
                  Sadly, the only interest I even have on this subject anymore is very simple.

                  A gun is a physical item, no more no less.

                  Unfortunately, there are always a few idiots that misuse them - people misuse pencils, cars, knives, scissors and baseball bats too - yet some think we need to "restrict" ownership of this one item, this gun thing.

                  So dumb this "argument."

                  You can have my guns only after you murder me of course.

                  ... along with my pencils, car, knife, scissors and nice big oak axe handle.

                  The obvious difference being that a gun is designed to kill people at a distance while a pencil is not so it's much easier to kill with a gun than a pencil.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post


                    The obvious difference being that a gun is designed to kill people at a distance while a pencil is not so it's much easier to kill with a gun than a pencil.
                    The difference here at the foundation, is that you would not trust citizens with guns, and others would indeed trust the citizens, and that they be responsible. While doing that, this will of course allow events where sociopaths use guns, or crazy people use guns, simply because guns exist and are available for the citizens to own. Yet we trust citizens to pilot a multi ton car, which is also very risky, and dangerous, given the rate of our driving deaths each year. So, you either are gonna trust your people, or you will not trust them at all, and treat them like 2 year olds, keeping the dangerous objects well out of their reach, until they get old enough to know the dangers of steak knives, rat poison, and so on.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                      The difference here at the foundation, is that you would not trust citizens with guns, and others would indeed trust the citizens, and that they be responsible. While doing that, this will of course allow events where sociopaths use guns, or crazy people use guns, simply because guns exist and are available for the citizens to own. Yet we trust citizens to pilot a multi ton car, which is also very risky, and dangerous, given the rate of our driving deaths each year. So, you either are gonna trust your people, or you will not trust them at all, and treat them like 2 year olds, keeping the dangerous objects well out of their reach, until they get old enough to know the dangers of steak knives, rat poison, and so on.

                      This is also a cultural difference between the US and UK as as I said guns are not an issue here and there is no call for them or outcry that our laws are as restrictive as they are. It's not even discussed by politicians as it's such a non-issue.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                        The obvious difference being that a gun is designed to kill people at a distance while a pencil is not so it's much easier to kill with a gun than a pencil.
                        That's an interesting perspective on a device that is designed to quickly accelerate a small object with great force.


                        I did not know that it's sole purpose was that it "is designed to kill people at a distance..."


                        Of course, such an object can be used for that, just as many objects can be.


                        Still, it's an object, no more no less.


                        People however are the most dangerous thing ... so far in the known universe.


                        Perhaps we should ban them .. no, we'll somehow limit our population. One child per couple maybe and ... maybe if we can somehow promote and encourage homosexual behavior, give them tax breaks - PAY people to have only homosexual relations.. maybe we can somehow limit and control these dangerous human creatures.

                        Of course the problem we'll have would be that then there would be an elite band of these dangerous human creatures doing Lord only knows what kind of evil things to the 'lower classes.'


                        Seems like an insoluble problem to me. Only a few elites get to have guns ? Do you REALLY think that's a good solution ?

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                          That's an interesting perspective on a device that is designed to quickly accelerate a small object with great force.


                          I did not know that it's sole purpose was that it "is designed to kill people at a distance..."


                          Of course, such an object can be used for that, just as many objects can be.


                          Still, it's an object, no more no less.


                          People however are the most dangerous thing ... so far in the known universe.


                          Perhaps we should ban them .. no, we'll somehow limit our population. One child per couple maybe and ... maybe if we can somehow promote and encourage homosexual behavior, give them tax breaks - PAY people to have only homosexual relations.. maybe we can somehow limit and control these dangerous human creatures.

                          Of course the problem we'll have would be that then there would be an elite band of these dangerous human creatures doing Lord only knows what kind of evil things to the 'lower classes.'


                          Seems like an insoluble problem to me. Only a few elites get to have guns ? Do you REALLY think that's a good solution ?

                          Are you seriously trying to tell me guns are not designed to kill people as that's about as absurd as if I claimed a sword wasn't designed to kill people. Part of the design of the ammo is that the react differently to human analogues and shatter or stay intact if you can't see that the gun has been designed with killing in mind then I'm not sure what to say.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #14
                            It's an object designed to eject a high velocity projectile.


                            What dangerous humans do with these objects is where trouble comes in.


                            People do dangerous things with all kinds of objects so, as I was saying, it just proves that it's WE that are dangerous, not items.


                            And again, is it wise to think that only certain of us get to possess these types of items ?


                            That will ALWAYS be a bad idea.


                            It might sound good. It might make some feel good - for awhile.


                            ... then humans will do what humans will do. Be humans .. which is why it is such a bad idea. Proven time and again and proven again more in the future ... again.


                            We don't seem to be able to retain what history teaches us.


                            Strange.


                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #15
                              Guns are designed to inflict harm and to kill if need be. There are bears in the town I live in, there is a bear den within. 300-400 yards of my home, telling my neighbors and I we are safer without guns would be insanity.

                              Why not just kill the bear(s)? Because my neighbors and I are responsible and careful. The bear den is on conservation land and we respect the lives of even dangerous animals Aong with the simple and sensible conservation regulatinions. Anyone telling us we shouldn't haveguns isn't being sensible.

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