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Another executive action in regards to gun control...

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  • #61
    Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post


    I didn't like it when he did it either.

    The other issue is selectivity. You are upset that a local official won't enforce some federal laws, but at the same time the federal government picks and chooses which laws it will allow local officials to enforce.

    Look at immigration laws - the federal government refuses to allow local officials to check immigration status on suspects, etc.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
      As every President in history has used executiveorders I'm fairly confident that a precedent has been set that they are fine and are enforcable.
      They don't lose power just because you don't like them.
      As far as I can see the only difference between an executive order and a law passed by a bill is that whoever the next President can instantly kill the ececutive order by issuing an order himself declaring the previous order null and void.
      If the new President doesn't do so the law stays in place and life goes on and the executive order stays in action.

      How many executive orders thoughout US history have been blocked for being unconstitutional?
      I have a feeling it's not many.
      Well there is the problem. You think the only difference between an executive order and bill is that the next pres can shoot it down. Rights have been granted to the congress to pass a bill collectively by representatives of the people. Rights have not been granted to one man/the president to independently make law for the period he is in office.

      Executive orders are not to be used for major policy change. It's meant mostly for expedience and to tweak policy, not to evade or defy the congress, or change law. It's not about how many executive orders have been used, it's the substance of the order.

      Executive Orders Issued by President George W. Bush

      https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archi...v/news/orders/

      Often it's used for miniscule things. Don't think we need to be paying congress to take up their time voting on Bob Hope day.

      And it doesn't seem that there was protest from the congress on more important executive actions. but still not actions defying current law. Executive actions can not conflict with current law. There is a difference between laws and policies. Like immigration LAWS.
      Last edited by msc; 05-10-2016, 05:11 AM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by msc View Post
        Executive orders are not to be used for major policy change. It's meant mostly for expedience, not to override the congress. It's not about how many executive orders have been used, it's the substance of the order.
        I agree with you I was just pointing out that they can be and have been used as temporary changes to minor legislation and have the power of law.

        I'm obviously not saying a President can just use an executive order to return the US to a new and shinier British Empire (even though that would obviously be a good thing) but for minor things that a President has run for office on but been unable to get bills passed he can use the action.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by MattInFla View Post


          The other issue is selectivity. You are upset that a local official won't enforce some federal laws, but at the same time the federal government picks and chooses which laws it will allow local officials to enforce.

          Look at immigration laws - the federal government refuses to allow local officials to check immigration status on suspects, etc.
          I'm not trying to argue the point but what does a suspects immigration status have to do with anything?
          Surely in any investigation people are suspects and are investigated and either bought in for questioning or ruled out, the immigration status is irrelevant at that stage?
          If someone commits a crime is charged and has a reason for deportation then by all means deport them but adding a search for deportation status of all suspects at the start of an investigation will just add loads of extra paperwork and take people away from the real task of catching the culprit.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by radcentr View Post
            Here's how Obama made that work, as far as immigration enforcement goes: *We have so much time, staffing and money to cover X amount of border and internal enforcement. Spend the money thus. The executive spends every last dime of money allocated at the end of 2015, arresting and deporting a number of people that more or less agrees with the number of dollars spent to deport an undocumented person 10 years ago, accounting for inflation and/or gov't. bloat.*

            The GOP-dominated congress gripes about this and does exactly nothing else. Including nothing about executive orders, either in particular or as a general practice. See how that works?

            No, he simply ordered ICE not to deport anybody. Clearly in violation of U.S. Law. Had he been a white Republican doing something so blatant with a Democrat Congress, he would have been impeached. Since he is the first black President he is immune from impeachment.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


              No, he simply ordered ICE not to deport anybody. Clearly in violation of U.S. Law. Had he been a white Republican doing something so blatant with a Democrat Congress, he would have been impeached. Since he is the first black President he is immune from impeachment.
              I thought the facts showed he had deported more than Bush? They centered in or a sub group of the group proper, given the limited resources. So, to actually go full bore would require congress to appropriate enough money to really go after the other illegals. And they will not commit the money to actually catch as many as possible, and they will not go after sanctuary cities that break federal law. Why? Because both parties want to appear to be doing their jobs, but the National Chamber of Commerce wants cheap illegal labor for their constituents to optimize their profits at home since they are stuck here doing business and cannot go to exploit the poor for the low wages in china and soon Vietnam.

              This is your GOP neoliberalism, the conservative economic philosophy in action. And the dems are on board with it. Reality reveals that this is fundamental and clear. Reagan's economic neoliberalism which places optimizing profits as the greatest good, and nothing else.


              If congress really wanted to solve the problem, you cut back on the enforcement at the border, and across this nation, saving a ton of money and harshen the penalty for employing them, with big fines and mandatory jail time. You use ICE to go after these criminal employers with a 800 number to report them with good rewards for the whistle blowers. So clearly neither party is serious about stopping it, because the money tells them to fake it to con the voters.

              This is the philosophy of neoliberalism at work, in action, or inaction, and the modern conservatism of Reagan gave it to us. Such a great force standing up for working people. They are the party of business and not working people. Ike would be scorned by them. But Trump is selling those GOPher bosses out and those GOPhers are pretty upset about it. Like Ryan. But not the majority of the voters. So they got big problems, over illegal immigration. Among other things like free trade.
              Last edited by Blue Doggy; 05-10-2016, 02:45 PM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                I thought the facts showed he had deported more than Bush? They centered in or a sub group of the group proper, given the limited resources. So, to actually go full bore would require congress to appropriate enough money to really go after the other illegals. And they will not commit the money to actually catch as many as possible, and they will not go after sanctuary cities that break federal law. Why? Because both parties want to appear to be doing their jobs, but the National Chamber of Commerce wants cheap illegal labor for their constituents to optimize their profits at home since they are stuck here doing business and cannot go to exploit the poor for the low wages in china and soon Vietnam.

                This is your GOP neoliberalism, the conservative economic philosophy in action. And the dems are on board with it. Reality reveals that this is fundamental and clear. Reagan's economic neoliberalism which places optimizing profits as the greatest good, and nothing else.


                If congress really wanted to solve the problem, you cut back on the enforcement at the border, and across this nation, saving a ton of money and harshen the penalty for employing them, with big fines and mandatory jail time. You use ICE to go after these criminal employers with a 800 number to report them with good rewards for the whistle blowers. So clearly neither party is serious about stopping it, because the money tells them to fake it to con the voters.

                This is the philosophy of neoliberalism at work, in action, or inaction, and the modern conservatism of Reagan gave it to us. Such a great force standing up for working people. They are the party of business and not working people. Ike would be scorned by them. But Trump is selling those GOPher bosses out and those GOPhers are pretty upset about it. Like Ryan. But not the majority of the voters. So they got big problems, over illegal immigration. Among other things like free trade.

                He didn't deport more than anybody. He changed the way they counted deportees. Under Obama, anyone turned away at the border was counted as a deportee. All smoke and mirrors.

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                • #68
                  Here's the source:
                  • 63,539 (91%) of all interior removals were previously convicted of a crime.
                  https://www.ice.gov/removal-statistics

                  Of the total, why did the figure fall to 235,413 total deported in 2015, vs figures in prior years (over 400k in 2012)? There are two factors: The concentration of resources to arrest those with prior criminal records (more expensive than rounding up people trying to cross) and the fact that the number of people trying to cross over in the last few years have declined. Fewer people crossing, fewer people arrested. The crap about border patrol stopping people at the border and chasing them back across is not valid. They can't just pull a count out of their arse and claim they "deported" them -without processing- to the group command. That would be akin to a local cop claiming he detained 5 criminals today, but he just beat them up and let them go after they promised they wouldn't commit more crime. Then your cop got credit for 5 processed arrests.

                  Pure fantasy.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                    Here's the source: https://www.ice.gov/removal-statistics

                    Of the total, why did the figure fall to 235,413 total deported in 2015, vs figures in prior years (over 400k in 2012)? There are two factors: The concentration of resources to arrest those with prior criminal records (more expensive than rounding up people trying to cross) and the fact that the number of people trying to cross over in the last few years have declined. Fewer people crossing, fewer people arrested. The crap about border patrol stopping people at the border and chasing them back across is not valid. They can't just pull a count out of their arse and claim they "deported" them -without processing- to the group command. That would be akin to a local cop claiming he detained 5 criminals today, but he just beat them up and let them go after they promised they wouldn't commit more crime. Then your cop got credit for 5 processed arrests.

                    Pure fantasy.
                    From a left wing source:

                    WASHINGTON — Immigration activists have sharply criticized President Obama for a rising volume of deportations, labeling him the "deporter in chief" and staging large protests that have harmed his standing with some Latinos, a key group of voters for Democrats.
                    But the portrait of a steadily increasing number of deportations rests on statistics that conceal almost as much as they disclose. A closer examination shows that immigrants living illegally in most of the continental U.S. are less likely to be deported today than before Obama came to office, according to immigration data.
                    Expulsions of people who are settled and working in the United States have fallen steadily since his first year in office, and are down more than 40% since 2009.
                    On the other side of the ledger, the number of people deported at or near the border has gone up — primarily as a result of changing who gets counted in the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency's deportation statistics.

                    The vast majority of those border crossers would not have been treated as formal deportations under most previous administrations. If all removals were tallied, the total sent back to Mexico each year would have been far higher under those previous administrations than it is now.


                    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...402-story.html

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                    • #70
                      No detail on how those "...people deported at or near the border" are counted, if they are processed or not? The other fact that doesn't square is the article claiming "If all removals were tallied the total sent back...each year would have been far higher under those previous administrations than it is now." If that change were so drastic, the numbers would still be up, comparable to W's administration.

                      The WH changed it's targeting strategy. 1) It is processing all border crossings and removals it has control over and 2) ..it is spending more on career criminals and terrorists than before. The fact that #1 meant higher numbers, speaks to the lack of proper reporting during previous administrations. It directly implies that prior GOP & D admins instructed staff to turn back people who would wait a short time in Mexico, then return to the US, with no solid record keeping to allow prosecution of repeat offenders. In short, previous administrations practiced sloppy police procedure, kept sloppy records, and failed to control repeat crossings as needed. The argument for Obama stands: Prosecution of repeat offenders appears to have had a positive effect on reducing numbers trying to cross, also due to some increased stability in Mexico's economy compared to prior years. Busting career criminals is a no-brainer (and more expensive), which is why the LA Times didn't go down that road.

                      Were this not the case, Obama would be strongly and effectively criticized on these very points in the GOP congress. The changing objectives for which immigration enforcement was spent, were met Hence, the weak criticism in congress. The only ones spending more wind on this line of criticism are the righty (and some lefty) pundits. The only reason they are doing it is because it speaks to the ignorant listeners who believe farmers could afford to pay $15 bucks/hour to citizens picking their strawberries, or local law enforcement would not cover for meat processing plants who employ less-than-legal labor.

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