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Is it time for stricter gun laws and the banning of assault weapons.

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  • Re: Is it time for stricter gun laws and the banning of assault weapons.

    Originally posted by CharlesD View Post
    I disagree. I read those alleged "contradictory" articles. The first I referenced earlier. They are a pro gun control group and their motivation is questionable. The second is basing its judgment on their opinion the persons originally surveyed lied for some reason or another.
    So... you dismiss one out of hand and misrepresent the second one. And, of course, you ignore the DOJ study that arrives at radically different numbers. I guess that's all a lot easier than addressing any of the substantive critiques.

    I have yet to see a valid rebutal of the FSU study, and I searched very hard from the very first time I read it well before I cited it.
    I'm sure you did.

    Like I said, if you have an argument with K@G, go conduct it will the FSU. I believe them and nothing you have said counter to it is any more than conjecture on your part.
    It is not conjecture that you had claimed that 400,000 lives were saved by defensive use of firearms. You have yet to explain how that is plausible, in a year when 23,330 people were killed by nationwide, taking into account that the majority of the population didn't own firearms. But I guess your argument begins in ends with "I believe them."

    I guess he was one of the stupid ones who didn't plan ahead with a second weapon to hold them at bay for 2 to 3 seconds like the guy in Connecticut did.
    Not sure what your point is.


    • Re: Is it time for stricter gun laws and the banning of assault weapons.

      Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
      So... you dismiss one out of hand and misrepresent the second one. And, of course, you ignore the DOJ study that arrives at radically different numbers. I guess that's all a lot easier than addressing any of the substantive critiques.

      I'm sure you did.

      It is not conjecture that you had claimed that 400,000 lives were saved by defensive use of firearms. You have yet to explain how that is plausible, in a year when 23,330 people were killed by nationwide, taking into account that the majority of the population didn't own firearms. But I guess your argument begins in ends with "I believe them."

      Not sure what your point is.
      I have told you several times. My point is, I believe the FSU study is correct. So 23,000 people were killed by firearms, and most of those were gang and drug related. Neither of which is related to the use of a gun to commit a crime when no one was killed, wounded or how many defended themselves by brandishing a gun without discharging it. You have some statistics. You do not have them all by a long shot and 2.5 million does not surprise me at all. I read your studies. Neither claimed any real data. One was an absolute gun control organization and the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology was no better. They produced no positive information, only claiming they did not believe the statistics put forth in the FSU study which was done about 1992/3.. As I pointed out earlier the Bureau of Justice statistics said that over half of all gun violence is not reported. They also said non fatal gun violent victims totaled 1,248,250 and that 11 % of all violent crime involved firearms.

      Considering the number of actual firearm related KNOWN incidents was that high I see no reason to question the FSU study. But again, if you still want to question it, go do so with FSU and until they decide they made a mistake I believe them. In fact the FSU staff are more believable than any of the others you have mentioned.


      • Re: Is it time for stricter gun laws and the banning of assault weapons.

        Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
        The question we have been debating isn't whether looser gun restrictions result in more people having guns (obviously, it does) but whether that has had a significant effect on the violent crime rate where implemented. And since I am sure you are familiar with my arguments on that score, I will not repeat them here.

        This is just another single-factor analysis that confuses correlation with causation. Also, they do really weird things like comparing the three years before the new gun laws were enacted to the eight years after they were enacted. You know why? Because while the murder rate did drop between 1996 from 1998 (when the new gun laws were enacted), it did not change at all from 1998 to 2000! That's some pretty blatant cherry-picking, doncha think?

        All of this raises another question: From 1989 to 1997 (the year before the new gun laws were enacted), the homicide rate in MA was cut by more than half (from 4.3 to 1.9). Why? After all, during that time, there wasn't any significant loosening of gun restrictions (which you claim is what lowers homicide rates) so what else could it have been?

        I do not understand this paragraph. We already dealt with your point about Virginia, which you said "has seen a 24% decline in violent crimes in the last 6 years with a 73% increase in gun ownership." Between 2006 and 2011, California saw a 23% decrease in violent crime (from a rate of 532.5 per 100,000 residents to 411.1 per 100,000 residents). You don't think that's comparable?

        That California is above the national average is not the point (even though it's below Florida, Arizona and a host of other gun-friendly states) because, again, there are many factors that affect the violent crime rate. We're looking at trends over time.

        Actually, I'm glad you mentioned Louisiana. Because it turns out that Louisiana has the Right-to-Carry and Castle Doctrine laws you favor (as well as weak gun laws generally - Louisiana Gun Rights - An Overview of Gun Laws in Louisiana) and yet it has you guessed it! the highest homicide rate of any state in America!

        Care to explain?

        My point was simply this: A drop in the cancer rate is undeniably a good thing. Just like a drop in the murder rate is undeniably a good thing. Why? Because it means that people have a lower chance of getting cancer or murdered. Seems pretty obvious to me.

        I agree that it is "too many." My point is that it's an improvement.

        It is a lovely graph.

        Yes, that was my point.

        I have not claimed that it did much of anything; only that when you said that murders jumped after its implementation, that was not true. Murders went down. But correlation does not equal causation.

        Yes! Exactly! There are other factors besides gun policy that affect crime rates! This is what I have been arguing all along!

        (Although, curiously, the recent recession was not accompanied by a jump in crime, baffling criminologists everywhere.)

        The CDC is a perfectly valid source, but that is not the statistic I said was disputed; rather, it was the 2.5 million defensive uses of firearms a year statistic that I was questioning.
        I am tired of circles.

        Statistically or otherwise, when you can own and protect yourself with a weapon, the crime rates go down.

        You have not proven that One State has comparably changed rates with another. You continue to claim that comparable does not mean comparable except for when you want it to.

        Also, your big flaw about rates vs laws is that you choose to use as many years back as you can to support no change in rate when what you should be looking at is the change for the years directly after laws are in place. As in my use of 87-90 instead of 80-90. 80-86 have no bearing on 87-90 because those year preceded the law which can be shown to contribute to the rise in crime rates.

        Though in Massachusetts you could also attribute it to Bush Sr being elected and liberals going crazy as a result.


        • Re: Is it time for stricter gun laws and the banning of assault weapons.

          I just came across this article.

          25 years murder-free in ‘Gun Town USA’

          In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of “Wild West” showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender.
          BTW the country with the highest murder numbers by firearms is South Africa.


          • Re: Is it time for stricter gun laws and the banning of assault weapons.

            Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
            Actually, I'm glad you mentioned Louisiana. Because it turns out that Louisiana has the Right-to-Carry and Castle Doctrine laws you favor (as well as weak gun laws generally - Louisiana Gun Rights - An Overview of Gun Laws in Louisiana) and yet it has you guessed it! the highest homicide rate of any state in America!

            Care to explain?

            While Louisiana may have a high homicide rate, the crime is mostly limited to Baton Rouge, New Orleans and Shreveport so it's crazy to condemn the whole state for the inabilities of law enforcement and government in those cities. You also have to look at the economical status of the people in those cities and as for N.O., it ain't pretty. White flight occurred years ago, taking the taxes with them so now the city is mostly nothing but government housing with the exception of the French Quarter, which is heavily patrolled and protected.
            I'd be willing to bet that almost all of the homicides committed in those cities were with guns that were obtained illegally so registration, background checks, higher taxes, ammo limits and anything else the gun control freaks can think of wouldn't do a damn thing to stop the problem. Until the cities decide to stop the government corruption and actually try to stop the criminals, it's going to continue.
            As a side note, my son's truck was stolen a few weeks ago with my .380 in the console. The thieves busted the window, hot wired the vehicle, went to the French Quarter and spent a few hundred dollars that was in the truck before they were caught on Canal Street. As soon as my son saw that his vehicle was stolen, he called a friend at the SPD and told him the gun was in the vehicle and an APB was put out with the State Police and NOPD immediately. My son was allowed to go get the vehicle immediately after it was found but here's the corruption part...the cop wanted to see his ID and wanted him to sign a document. My son said he wouldn't sign anything until he made sure everything was there.(his work tools were in there too). He told the cop, "I'm suppose to have a .380 in there." The corrupt cop said, "It's in the patrol car because it's evidence." My son picked up the broken glass, handed it to the cop and said, "Here's your evidence" and he made a phone call to his friend at the SPD. Within a few minutes, the cop comes walking up with the gun and told my son to have a nice day. Now, that gun wasn't used in any crime, nor was it touched by the thieves so that tells me that the cop just wanted to keep it....he could have gotten more money for the a/c tools in back of the truck Anyway, that's part of the reason that crime is so bad in New Orleans.