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How to stop the violence?

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  • How to stop the violence?

    I am convinced from a practical view point that any form of gun control in the US will simply not work. While it is a desirable goal to eliminate the huge numbers of weapons in private hands, it is simply not a practical thing to do and definitely will not happen overnight.

    There are too many guns in circulation right now to make much of an impact even if the flow of new guns was stopped.

    The boarder is too porous and gun manufacturers will simply set up shop outside the US and smuggling will occur, just as drugs have not been stopped or was booze during Prohibition days.

    In Canada where handguns have been banned for decades, there are still handguns in circulation, some smuggled in from the US and some that people had before they were banned.

    So given the number of guns in circulation in the US, the propensity of people in the US to want to own guns, does anyone have any practical suggestions at ways to end the gun violence in the USA?

    Remember that a gun in the home is much more likely to be used to kill someone in the home, either accidently or deliberately than an intruder.

    Remember also that the US simply cannot afford to put an armed and trained policeman on every corner and that the police would be human and subject to human frailties and error.

    Anyone have any practical ideas that will work or is the US prepared to continue to allow schoolchildren to be murdered in the classroom?

  • #2
    Re: How to stop the violence?

    Well, violence as such is a societal phenomenon in the US that has to be adressed by other measures than laws as well, but plenty of suggestions have been made already, how to at least make it more difficult for certain people to get their hands on guns.

    1. A nation wide gun register, including previous convictions, prison sentences, registered cases of alcohol and drug abuse and psychiatric treatment of weapon license applicants as well as of interested gun buyers. Including mandatory identity checks and rejection if one is found to be mentioned.

    2. Certain types of assault weapons ( details can always be discussed) are not necessary for either self defence, hunting or sports, pure and simply. They belong in the hands of soldiers and police with special training and for certain purposes and noone else.

    3. If I am informed correctly, it is still not a punishable offence in the US, NOT to lock your weapons safely at home (for example from your children. The mum of the Newton gunman apparently failed to do that). My own grandfather in Germany owned a couple of guns and he could have gone to prison within no time had I, as a little boy taken one and messed around with it ( even without hurting anybody). That is why the closet with the guns was ALWAYS sealed impossible to open for me. That would be something easy to change.
    I am talking about making it a legal requirement, I don´t doubt that many or most gun owners are responsible people anyway. Additionally insurance for damages inflicted with your guns could be made mandatory ( not sure about the current legal situation) with responsibility falling solely on you if you are found to have violated the safe storage requirements.

    4. Germany (and other countries as well) make it mandatory for weapon license applicants to join their local shooting clubs. These are private associations charged with a public duty though, to contribute to gun safety. They organize mandatory safety trainings (that you have to pass once a year, including safe storage checks and recommendations at your home), and also keep an eye on you, regarding alcohol, drugs or unstable behaviour. And since they are in trouble themselves if they are found to have been neglicent they are likely to recommend revoking your license to authorities on these grounds f.e. when in doubt. But most of all they provide a social environment for gun owners to interact with like-minded people, where "lone wolves" can often be detected before something happens.

    5, Improving psychiatric services in the US. Many or most gunmen have been found to have had mental mental problems or diseases prior to their killing sprees, the Colorado gunman has apparently even tried to call a psychiatrist before he went off to kill. It should be examined wether there are personal, legal or cost obstacles for certain people to get and seek psychiatric help in the US.

    I know these are few and incomplete suggestions and the complete picture is much larger and complicated. But if only a couple of lifes could be saved it could be worth it.......
    Last edited by Voland; 12-19-2012, 04:15 AM.

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    • #3
      Re: How to stop the violence?

      secure the schools

      allow carry laws in more areas for statistically sickos stay clear of them

      fix our mental health system

      fix the home... i truly feel we have lost our way at the house... kids are being raised by kids... parents are not doing their jobs and the lack of structure they are raised in effects them in all facets of their adult life

      give young people hope!.... The future in america is bleak... it has been bleak for a while and i feel it gives these young kids whether mental or not ...no hope for a future... when all hope is lost people do terrible things

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      • #4
        Re: How to stop the violence?

        Originally posted by Rakkasan View Post
        secure the schools

        allow carry laws in more areas for statistically sickos stay clear of them

        fix our mental health system

        fix the home... i truly feel we have lost our way at the house... kids are being raised by kids... parents are not doing their jobs and the lack of structure they are raised in effects them in all facets of their adult life

        give young people hope!.... The future in america is bleak... it has been bleak for a while and i feel it gives these young kids whether mental or not ...no hope for a future... when all hope is lost people do terrible things
        More guns is not the answer, all it does is makes more guns available to be used in violence.

        the rest is mindless platitudes, how to give people hope? In Canada we have a strong safety net, people can only fall so far and can always climb up. Are you proposing some sort of socialist safety net?

        What about the person who makes a single mistake and is convicted of a felony. As i understand it in the US his life is effectively over in a lot oof areas, many career paths closed off, stigma for life. In Canada you can usually get rid of a criminal conviction with an almost automatic pardon after being clean for a period of time. Are you proposing that?

        Kids raising kids Are you proposing some sort of overhaul of the financial and economy so that one parent can make enough to raise a family as was the case in the 50's?

        What are you proposing? be specific.

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        • #5
          Re: How to stop the violence?

          I don't believe "more guns" is the answer to gun violence. I find that notion baffling, actually.

          I think the mental health issue is something that needs to be looked at.

          One issue that I haven't heard anyone talking about (except for Voland in post #2 above, thank you Voland) is the issue of LOCKING UP YOUR GUNS. I brought this up with a co-worker the other day, and his excuse was that for safety, he prefers to have an unlocked gun in his nightstand. OK, I can buy that, to an extent.. and to his credit, he doesn't have any kids in the house, no neices or nephews visiting, etc. I can understand why you wouldn't want to fumble with a key or combination to unlock your gun in an emergency.. but they do make biometric gun vaults now that can read your fingerprints, making it very quick and easy to unlock your primary protection gun. To those who need to have several guns, get a gun safe. Or dedicate a locked closet to your collection - ESPECIALLY IF YOU SUSPECT THAT YOUR CHILD MAY BE MENTALLY ILL. For fucks sake, lock them up. Even a simple padlock through the trigger guard can work on some guns. Or lock up all your ammo. Let's spend some money educating the public on this. If you can afford to buy a gun, you can afford to buy a lock for it.

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          • #6
            Re: How to stop the violence?

            There seems to be growing support in Congress for gun control on both side of the isle. Not just for gun control but also video games and mental health issues

            Congressional backing grows for gun control debate - Yahoo! News

            Congressional gun rights supporters showed an increased willingness Tuesday to consider new legislation to control firearms in the aftermath of the Connecticut school shootings — provided it also addresses mental health issues and the impact of violent video games.

            A former co-chairman of the Congressional Sportsmen's Caucus, Democratic Rep. Mike Thompson, D-Calif., and 10-term House Republican Jack Kingston — a Georgia lawmaker elected with strong National Rifle Association backing — were the latest to join the call to consider gun control as part of a comprehensive, anti-violence effort next year.

            "Put guns on the table, also put video games on the table, put mental health on the table," Kingston said.

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            • #7
              Re: How to stop the violence?

              Voland,
              1. Which is it you want, a nation wide gun register or a citizen database?
              2. Actual Lassault weapons" have been restricted since the 30's
              3. Laws vary from state to state in regards to gun owner firearm security requirements.
              4. We have shooting clubs and organizations involved with gunt trainiing and gun saftey, the NRA is just one of them.
              5, Improving psychiatric services in the US is a great idea.

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              • #8
                Re: How to stop the violence?

                Originally posted by RDK View Post
                So given the number of guns in circulation in the US, the propensity of people in the US to want to own guns, does anyone have any practical suggestions at ways to end the gun violence in the USA?
                First, I think we need to accept the fact that no matter what we do gun violence will never end.

                Originally posted by RDK View Post
                Anyone have any practical ideas that will work or is the US prepared to continue to allow schoolchildren to be murdered in the classroom?
                I'll have to echo some of what has already been said. First and foremost, IMO, we need to improve how we identify and treat mental illness in the United States, along with giving parents more tools and options in regards to dealing with children that are in that borderline area where they are functional, but only just. I do not think arming everyone, such as teachers and the like, is reasonable either as many I think would choose not to arm themselves and we can certainly not force them to.

                I have no problem with mandatory locking of weapons, either in a safe, case, or with some sort of trigger lock. The problem with that, however, is that it would be impossible to enforce.

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                • #9
                  Re: How to stop the violence?

                  Originally posted by ThorHammer View Post
                  I have no problem with mandatory locking of weapons, either in a safe, case, or with some sort of trigger lock. The problem with that, however, is that it would be impossible to enforce.
                  Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting mandatory locking of weapons in my earlier post - and yeah, I don't know how we'd enforce that. My idea is to better educate the public on the issue, through Public Service Announcements & the like. Even my pro-gun friends seem receptive to the idea. As it stand right now, I see virtually no one talking about the issue.

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                  • #10
                    Re: How to stop the violence?

                    Originally posted by ThorHammer View Post
                    First, I think we need to accept the fact that no matter what we do gun violence will never end.
                    ......
                    I agree it will never end 100% but why is it so much higher in the USA than in other countries? I don't think that simply ready access to firearms is the complete explanation for the reason why the US is so much higher than other countries in gun violence.

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                    • #11
                      Re: How to stop the violence?

                      It's funny, school children are murdered on the streets of our major cities every day. More than were killed in last weeks event and no one goes ballistic over that. To me, this knee jerk reaction is just something that is sensationalized by the MSM to achieve a goal of limiting or prohibiting private gun ownership.

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                      • #12
                        Re: How to stop the violence?

                        Originally posted by Jefe View Post
                        Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting mandatory locking of weapons in my earlier post - and yeah, I don't know how we'd enforce that. My idea is to better educate the public on the issue, through Public Service Announcements & the like. Even my pro-gun friends seem receptive to the idea. As it stand right now, I see virtually no one talking about the issue.
                        I can get on board with that.

                        Originally posted by RDK View Post
                        I agree it will never end 100% but why is it so much higher in the USA than in other countries? I don't think that simply ready access to firearms is the complete explanation for the reason why the US is so much higher than other countries in gun violence.
                        I think there is a plethora of reasons and no, single underlying thing that informs them all. Honestly, and I don't really know how quite to explain my reasoning right now, I think one of the big reasons is our nation's warped idea of what being a man means.

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                        • #13
                          Re: How to stop the violence?

                          Originally posted by RDK View Post
                          I agree it will never end 100% but why is it so much higher in the USA than in other countries? I don't think that simply ready access to firearms is the complete explanation for the reason why the US is so much higher than other countries in gun violence.
                          It is not the access to weapons that causes this violence. As I said before, in my youth, access to firearms was extremely easy. They were leaning in the corner of every house in the area where I grew up. They were hanging in the back of pickup trucks. You could order them through the mail. They were everywhere. It wasn't the availability of weapons that kept this sort of thing from happening. You can laugh and scoff all you want but when this country decided on an anything goes morality, that is when things changed.

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                          • #14
                            Re: How to stop the violence?

                            Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                            It is not the access to weapons that causes this violence. As I said before, in my youth, access to firearms was extremely easy. They were leaning in the corner of every house in the area where I grew up. They were hanging in the back of pickup trucks. You could order them through the mail. They were everywhere. It wasn't the availability of weapons that kept this sort of thing from happening. You can laugh and scoff all you want but when this country decided on an anything goes morality, that is when things changed.

                            And when we decided to repeat the mistakes history shows us always lead to death and destruction.

                            ================================

                            .....

                            on some level they believe they want to convince themselves that they're "better than that", better than Beslan, better than Columbine, better than those awful images of people jumping from the twin towers. That they're different somehow. Special.

                            Which means that they will not suffer armed fathers or grandfathers around children as it "sends the wrong message."


                            ..........


                            educators should know something about history. Because this is an old story and has its roots in a tragedy every bit as compelling as Sandy Hook School. The story of Lindisfarne.

                            .......

                            Today most of us don't even remember that there once was such a place. Even though we keep repeating the same mistake it made. We don't remember what we should have learned then; that weakness will, sooner or later, summon horror.

                            ....

                            one thing the school administrators and teachers might consider doing is admit the fact that they have no more idea on how to physically defend children than they do about how to build a space shuttle with their second grade paper doll scissors.


                            It is all so sad. But the bullet ridden bodies of those little angels and angelic teachers in Newtown should show us that wishful thinking won't work, has never worked and will never work.

                            If it did, we'd only have to wish those children back.

                            Wouldn't we?


                            Articles: Lindisfarne To Sandy Hook: The Tragedy of Wishful Thinking

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                            • #15
                              Re: How to stop the violence?

                              Originally posted by RDK View Post
                              I agree it will never end 100% but why is it so much higher in the USA than in other countries? I don't think that simply ready access to firearms is the complete explanation for the reason why the US is so much higher than other countries in gun violence.
                              It's not necessarily higher in the US than in other countries. We are ranked 12th in the world for gun related deaths by firearms, not 1st.

                              List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                              El Salvador is number one. What must El Salvador do to lower their gun violence. What about El Salvador is so bad?

                              El Salvador has implemented a number of programs, licensing, and other laws to make "gun ownership more safe", just as many advocate in the US, if a full out ban is impractical. Yet despite licensing, registration, regulation, etc, to make it more "safe", they are number one on the list.

                              Guns in El Salvador: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

                              "
                              Firearm Regulation Authority


                              Guns in El Salvador are regulated by the Ministry of National Defence and the National Civil Police16 17




                              Prohibited Firearms and Ammunition




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                              Regulation of Automatic Assault Weapons
                              In El Salvador, private possession of fully automatic weapons is permitted under a licence16



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                              Gun Owner Licensing

                              In El Salvador, only licensed gun owners20 17 may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition



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                              Gun Owner Background Checks
                              An applicant for a firearm licence in El Salvador must pass background checks which consider mental16 records



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                              Gun Owner Licensing Period
                              In El Salvador gun owners must re-apply and re-qualify for their firearm licence every six years for possession, three years for a licence to carry20



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                              Licensing Records
                              In El Salvador, authorities maintain a record21 20 17 2 of individual civilians licensed to acquire, possess, sell or transfer a firearm or ammunition



                              Firearm Registration




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                              Civilian Gun Registration
                              In El Salvador, the law requires21 20 2 that a record of the acquisition, possession and transfer of each privately held firearm be retained in an official register



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                              State-Owned Firearm Records
                              In El Salvador, State agencies are required22 to maintain records of the storage and movement of all firearms and ammunition under their control



                              Marking and Tracing Guns and Ammunition




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                              Firearm Marking
                              In El Salvador, a unique identifying mark on each firearm is not required by law23



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                              Firearm Tracing
                              In El Salvador, state authorities carry out23 recognised arms tracing and tracking procedures



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                              Ballistic Marking of Firearms and Ammunition
                              In El Salvador, state authorities employ20 17 ballistic fingerprinting technology to trace guns and ammunition



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                              Collection, Amnesty and Destruction Programmes

                              Authorities in El Salvador are known to have24 25 implemented voluntary firearm surrender schemes, and/or weapon seizure programmes in order to reduce the number of illicit firearms in circulation



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                              Surrendered in Gun Amnesty
                              In El Salvador, the number of firearms and/or rounds of ammunition voluntarily surrendered for destruction in recent arms amnesty and collection programmes is reported to be 10,20026 (1991-96)



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                              Small Arms Destroyed
                              In El Salvador, the total number of firearms destroyed following recent amnesty, collection and seizure programmes is reported to be 28,03624 (2006-2008)"

                              Mexico is number 10 on the list, above the US and they have the STRICTIST GUN LAWS IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE. I will grant you that the US drug war has a lot to do with that, but still.

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