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How to stop the violence?

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  • #46
    Re: How to stop the violence?

    Originally posted by Jefe View Post
    Man, go back and re-read the thread. My original comment was directed at no one in this thread, it was an offhand comment to all the calls I am seeing (like I said, on Facebook, for example, but in general on this forum as well) to "arm everyone". I am simply questioning the logic behind the notion that more guns will reduce gun violence. You, and others, may have good responses for that, and I may be inclined to agree with some of it, but you're making it awfully hard to have a discussion when you cherry pick my one comment, set up strawmen, etc.
    First, in light of your profession that you do not, in any way, call for more gun control Legislation, I here by retract my assertion that you do.

    Moving on...

    Did you know that the Oregon Mall shooting that ended in two deaths of patrons and the death of the perp, was actually confronted by a guy with a CCW?


    Originally posted by Jefe View Post
    What about the morality of a woman who collects guns and doesn't lock them up, knowing that her child may be mentally unstable?

    To be fair, she may not have been mentally stable herself, so maybe she had no way of seeing this coming.
    Maybe she did have them locked up.


    • #47
      Re: How to stop the violence?

      Originally posted by Jefe View Post
      I don't believe "more guns" is the answer to gun violence. I find that notion baffling, actually.

      I think the mental health issue is something that needs to be looked at.

      One issue that I haven't heard anyone talking about (except for Voland in post #2 above, thank you Voland) is the issue of LOCKING UP YOUR GUNS. I brought this up with a co-worker the other day, and his excuse was that for safety, he prefers to have an unlocked gun in his nightstand. OK, I can buy that, to an extent.. and to his credit, he doesn't have any kids in the house, no neices or nephews visiting, etc. I can understand why you wouldn't want to fumble with a key or combination to unlock your gun in an emergency.. but they do make biometric gun vaults now that can read your fingerprints, making it very quick and easy to unlock your primary protection gun. To those who need to have several guns, get a gun safe. Or dedicate a locked closet to your collection - ESPECIALLY IF YOU SUSPECT THAT YOUR CHILD MAY BE MENTALLY ILL. For fucks sake, lock them up. Even a simple padlock through the trigger guard can work on some guns. Or lock up all your ammo. Let's spend some money educating the public on this. If you can afford to buy a gun, you can afford to buy a lock for it.

      Well, locking up your guns and making sure that noone but yourself can use them is, as I said mandatory here. While it is clear that such a law is hard to enforce, it is being enforced, also as deterrence, in the cases where violations (even without deadly consequences) come to light. And not just that, no insurance will pay any damage inflicted with your guns if you cannot prove that they were locked as they should be. Which can easily ruin a person. Additionally it is the job of the shooting club ( mandatory membership for every legal gunowner) to educate members on safety requirements and also check gun storage at homes. If your guns should end up in a crime or worse, a killing, it is not just yourself, but also the shooting club that may be in big trouble ( in case they did testify your compliance with safety requirements). That is why they are likely to be precise.
      And I was thinking about school shootings and that allegedly guns at school were the answer : Germany has had two deadly school shootings in the last decade and a couple of attempts, that could be stopped without greater casualties. Sometimes because of courageous reactions from teachers and / or students, sometimes because police was fast, but mostly the answer is safety training and raising psychological awareness. Plenty of teachers at schools and universities have been trained over the last years how to detect and deal better with students suspicious of paranoid or psychotic tendencies. Schools and universities have recieved budgets to offer counselling and psychological support for students that feel they need help, by request also anonymous. And universal healthcare probably makes it easier to send someone in therapy. Plenty of, especially newly built schools have recieved alarm systems that lock doors after a button is pushed, so that they can only be opened from the inside, but not the outside. In my city a shooting was averted last year, after such a school counsellor gave a tip to police. And after they found suspicious entries in social networks that corresponded with the tip and promised something "to happen" on a certain day they were already waiting for the wanna-be gunman ( who actually had a gun, stolen from his dads closet with him).
      I am not suggesting anything that you should or shouldnt do in the US. Just outlining measures that work where I live.


      • #48
        Re: How to stop the violence?

        More "laws and regulations" by the govt. always create more problems. In the case of guns, it will create more death and destruction - yes, it absolutely will.

        As with every issue, we need the govt. to sit down, put their law drafting pens away ( I have some suggestions as to where they should put them ), shut their lying mouths and let the true American leaders (that's us) have the freedom they need to fix these problems themselves.

        Now we have our manchild "president" vowing to "take action."

        This should scare the hell out of anyone with more than a room temperature IQ and thimblefull of common sense. Barack Obama ...

        ,... he's gonna "do something" to "stop gun violence."

        God help us.


        • #49
          Re: How to stop the violence?

          Originally posted by ericams2786 View Post
          It's not necessarily higher in the US than in other countries. We are ranked 12th in the world for gun related deaths by firearms, not 1st.
          highest in the developed world, if you want toi justify your homicide rate by comparing with narco-states, failed states and the others that surround you on the top end of the list then go ahead.

          if you want to have a half way intelligent conservation about the issue then compare the US to other states that have a similar development and economy. Otherwise you are just dragging a red herring around.


          • #50
            Re: How to stop the violence?

            Ban psychotropic drugs not guns. Guns protect people. If it were up to me, all teachers would have guns


            • #51
              Originally posted by RDK View Post
              Re: How to stop the violence?

              highest in the developed world, if you want toi justify your homicide rate by comparing with narco-states, failed states and the others that surround you on the top end of the list then go ahead.

              if you want to have a half way intelligent conservation about the issue then compare the US to other states that have a similar development and economy. Otherwise you are just dragging a red herring around.
              When one considers that of all the gun deaths in the U.S., roughly 75% are from that of suicide, and 50% of all suicides are done with something other than a gun. This fact would suggest that even if guns were unavailable, if suicide is the intent, there are plenty of options. When we account for the suicides in the equation, we are left with roughly 13,000 gun deaths. If we remove the large Democratically controlled cities of L.A., N.Y. and Chicago, that number falls again by half.


              • #52
                Originally posted by RDK View Post
                Re: How to stop the violence?

                More guns is not the answer, all it does is makes more guns available to be used in violence.

                the rest is mindless platitudes, how to give people hope? In Canada we have a strong safety net, people can only fall so far and can always climb up. Are you proposing some sort of socialist safety net?

                What about the person who makes a single mistake and is convicted of a felony. As i understand it in the US his life is effectively over in a lot oof areas, many career paths closed off, stigma for life. In Canada you can usually get rid of a criminal conviction with an almost automatic pardon after being clean for a period of time. Are you proposing that?

                Kids raising kids Are you proposing some sort of overhaul of the financial and economy so that one parent can make enough to raise a family as was the case in the 50's?

                What are you proposing? be specific.
                Simplistic straw man arguments. More guns in the RIGHT hands should be part of a comprehensive answer, as is FEWER guns in the hands of the WRONG people.

                Let's deal with the first...more guns in the hands of the right people. One of the more interesting suggestions I have heard since Parkland, is that with modern technology, police officers (beat cops, traffic cops, even detectives) who are not involved of running and staffing of police precinct facilities should have spaces set up in local schools where they should be when they are not on patrol/beat/etc. and are doing paperwork. This would be a relatively low-cost way to have additional police in schools much of the time.

                And yes, people with the appropriate backgrounds who happen to be teachers/school personal can certainly be given some additional training and issued firearms (safety and security protocols for having them in the school can all be worked out). Hell, let's get rifle clubs back in the schools, and have the PE teachers highly trained with ready access to them (in the event of a school shooting).

                Fewer guns in the hands of the wrong people. A bit more complicated, given we live in a representative republic with due process guarantees (funny how one of the few genuinely fascist things Trump has said was something most liberals would support -- take the guns FIRST, then let people have a chance to argue for getting their's back), but it is not insurmountable. In many of the cases of mass shootings, it was not a lack of warning signs, it was failure of families, communities, law enforcement, and courts to take the necessary (and obvious) steps to avoid the tragedy.

                I have often pointed out that there are many nations in the world with high levels of gun ownership, as well as the fact that guns are not particularly more prevalent in this country now than they have been in the past, so it is clearly not the guns or the availability thereof that leads to wackos (or just plain evil people) engaging in such rampages, which begs the question, what is. Well, for starters, the fact that since the 1970s courts have made civil commitment harder. It is time to revisit these cases. Whereas the the status quo back then was unacceptable (long term civil commitment to institutions where treatment was minimal to non-existent), it is time to revisit the standards by which someone can be civilly committed (provided there is sufficient due process, and clear requirements for standards of treatment and facilities, periodic review, etc...). Seriously, how many of us have asked ourselves upon hearing the crazy things many of these mass shooters have said or done in the run up to their killings why they were not in an institution already.


                • #53
                  I read an article in Christianity Today about our (it was addressing Christians, in particular) responsibility to reduce gun violence in the US. I read the article because I generally agree with that concept. But when I got into the article, I came across this part:

                  Counter to arguments from the National Rifle Association, to regulate rights does not restrict freedom but actually makes it possible. We Christians, for example, champion the right to practice religion freely while gladly submitting to building and zoning codes, noise laws, and many other restrictions for the sake of community harmony.
                  apples to oranges analogy, here. Christians submit to zoning laws because zoning laws dont restrict our freedom to worship, unlike regulating gun rights.

                  they went on to say one of our responsibilities is to restrict guns that are designed to kill people quickly. With which I do not agree.


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
                    I read an article in Christianity Today about our (it was addressing Christians, in particular) responsibility to reduce gun violence in the US. I read the article because I generally agree with that concept. But when I got into the article, I came across this part:

                    apples to oranges analogy, here. Christians submit to zoning laws because zoning laws dont restrict our freedom to worship, unlike regulating gun rights.

                    they went on to say one of our responsibilities is to restrict guns that are designed to kill people quickly. With which I do not agree.
                    Nor do any sensible people who want to remain free people.

                    Guns in the hands of only an "elite" group, is a practice of the most dangerous form of insanity.

                    The founding fathers of this country were aware of this and made sure that the right to keep and bear arms was part of our Constitution.

                    Humans, as a rule are easily corrupted and usually dangerous, which is why they created a divided powers form of government like we have, and why we have a right to keep & bear arms.

                    Both of which are under threat by power mad nut's pretending they "just want to help everybody."

                    They want to control everybody, that's all. It's the same drama and scenario that's played out in human history since our time with only rocks & spears.


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
                      I read an article in Christianity Today about our (it was addressing Christians, in particular) responsibility to reduce gun violence in the US. I read the article because I generally agree with that concept. But when I got into the article, I came across this part:

                      apples to oranges analogy, here. Christians submit to zoning laws because zoning laws dont restrict our freedom to worship, unlike regulating gun rights.

                      they went on to say one of our responsibilities is to restrict guns that are designed to kill people quickly. With which I do not agree.
                      Yes and restricting guns does restrict your right to worship guns


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by redrover View Post

                        Yes and restricting guns does restrict your right to worship guns
                        Uhm ... So, non sequitur much?

                        Do you have anything intelligent to add?