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Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

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  • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

    Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
    I am sure they'd have no problem finding out who you are... if they were so inclined.

    And I am fascinated to hear that you believe that the same government you think is going to confiscate your firearms is somehow going to be stymied by search-and-seizure laws.
    I really wouldn't trust this government as far as I can throw them, but worrying about 1 person with a shotgun? Not even they are that stupid.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

      Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
      Yeah, I've said the same thing: That gun control succeeds mostly in annoying gun owners.

      I'm not saying that gun laws have had no positive effects, but to the extent that they work at all, they work around the margins. But that doesn't make the arguments of the pro-gun crowd any more valid. For instance, the "right go carry" laws don't really lower violent crime. But — and this is important — they also don't seem to make violent crime any worse. And because they don't make violent crime any worse, I am fine with right to carry laws (ideally, with a certain amount of training).



      Not at all. Levy a high enough tax on ammunition and — voila! — guns become prohibitively expensive to own. (I think Chris Rock had a joke about this. He said we shouldn't ban guns, but bullets should cost $5,000 each.)



      But that's what makes life interesting, eh?

      I am heading off on vacation with my family now, so I won't be posting for a while. Have a great New Year and on the off chance that this gun debate isn't settled by the time I'm back, we can pick it up then.
      My brother and I reload everything we shoot from shotgun to rifle. Knowing how long it takes congress to make a decision about taxing guns or ammo we will have lots of time to stock up on years of powder and projectiles.

      But really, do you think congress could get such draconian anti-gun legislation passed? No way Jose.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

        Originally posted by Bfgrn
        The age appropriate response:

        "I know you are, but what am I?"

        "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me"
        Well, at least you're acting your age.

        Hopefully that's what you were trying to accomplish because you didn't accomplish anything else.

        Why should your first amendment be treated any differently from your second amendment?
        Last edited by Slon; 12-29-2012, 10:40 AM.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

          Originally posted by Bfgrn View Post
          Our nation was founded on democratic principles. Our form of government is a democratic republic; a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law. ref.
          Actually, it's a constitutional republic. You vote for your politicians and then they do whatever the hell they want unless someone makes a really big stink about it using the constitution.

          Americans are far too stupid to vote in republican elections so they certainly wouldn't be able to vote intelligently in a democracy.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

            Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
            20th Century... 20th Century... Sounds familiar. Oh, right, I bought my house through them!

            Look, you are welcome to believe that gun registration will send the United States on the inevitable path to genocide... but I will not be joining you. And of course, there is nothing to stop you from defending yourself from the government with your registered gun, is there? Honestly, I think that one problem that some gun owners have is that they are so focused on the government kicking in their front door that they are blinded to the ways our rights actually are disappearing.



            Well, that is an interesting perspective (and I am not being sarcastic... for a change) but I think it is a misuse of the word "punishment." The way you are defining it, any requirement becomes a punishment.
            Forced registration of guns that is not applied generally to other purchases/ownership is an infringement of the second amendment. Same goes for a special tax on firearms. Think about it. Let's say the federal government forced you to register by mail with the federal government for every political opinion you voiced. You'd have to pay a $500.00 registration fee each time. That's very close to an outright ban and actually goes beyond a fine (fines are considered a punishment) even though it is not actually considered illegal, unless you fail to register.

            That's why it says the right to bear arms shall not be INFRINGED, as opposed to OUTRIGHT BANNED. Many people think they're clever by suggesting time-consuming registration, background checks or taxing of firearms to avoid using the "ban" word, but the second amendment already contains language to make your idea less clever than you think.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

              Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
              Yeah, I've said the same thing: That gun control succeeds mostly in annoying gun owners.

              I'm not saying that gun laws have had no positive effects, but to the extent that they work at all, they work around the margins. But that doesn't make the arguments of the pro-gun crowd any more valid. For instance, the "right go carry" laws don't really lower violent crime. But — and this is important — they also don't seem to make violent crime any worse. And because they don't make violent crime any worse, I am fine with right to carry laws (ideally, with a certain amount of training).
              I'm not sure that we have a large enough, or long enough, sample size to conclude that right to carry doesn't lower violent crime.

              Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
              Not at all. Levy a high enough tax on ammunition and — voila! — guns become prohibitively expensive to own. (I think Chris Rock had a joke about this. He said we shouldn't ban guns, but bullets should cost $5,000 each.)
              I disagree. Such a tax on ammunition would be ruled unconstitutional, almost immediately.

              However, an ongoing registration tax (which, of course would be called a "fee"), would have a suppressing effect, and be perfectly legal.

              Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
              But that's what makes life interesting, eh?

              I am heading off on vacation with my family now, so I won't be posting for a while. Have a great New Year and on the off chance that this gun debate isn't settled by the time I'm back, we can pick it up then.
              Indeed, it does.

              Have a safe and happy holiday with your family.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                Originally posted by Danny View Post
                I still don't see a proposed confiscation of presently owned firearms.
                Feinstein and Reno have both been quoted as wanting a complete ban and confiscation of privately held firearms. I'm sure that there have been many others.

                Originally posted by Danny View Post
                Well darn. I guess that settles it then? Not quite. I hate to quote Politifact but I've examined their argument and it's acceptable.

                PolitiFact | Mayor Michael Bloomberg says 40 percent of guns are sold without a background check
                Bullshit. Wal-Mart alone probably sells over 60% of the firearms in this country (hyperbole). You look like a fool parroting this unbelievable assertion, Danny.

                Originally posted by Danny View Post
                It's the most up to date info there is, even if it's 10 years old. One can only imagine how much worse it is today. My statement is correct and anyone who thinks this is ok should be ashamed.
                No, it's completely unbelievable bullshit. You obviously know nothing of America and how our gun laws are written.

                Originally posted by Danny View Post
                This is complete bullshit. They are talking about felonies. And they went from 50-380. OMG an increase of 89%!!! These aren't even deaths. The UK has 24 gun deaths a year with a third of your population 24!!!!!!!!!!!. There is no data to support the gun argument. IF you live in constant fear of someone taking your guns away you can probably seek help for that. It'll likely be covered under Obamacare.
                I have all the argument I need - the Second Amendment - recently confirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court. Do you need any more "data" than that?

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                  Originally posted by Bfgrn View Post
                  Our nation was founded on democratic principles. Our form of government is a democratic republic; a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law. ref.


                  "The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482
                  We are a Federal Republic, not a democracy. Everything about our system of government is designed to protect the minority from the dictates of the majority.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                    Originally posted by Danny View Post
                    I still don't see a proposed confiscation of presently owned firearms.



                    Well darn. I guess that settles it then? Not quite. I hate to quote Politifact but I've examined their argument and it's acceptable.

                    PolitiFact | Mayor Michael Bloomberg says 40 percent of guns are sold without a background check



                    It's the most up to date info there is, even if it's 10 years old. One can only imagine how much worse it is today. My statement is correct and anyone who thinks this is ok should be ashamed.




                    This is complete bullshit. They are talking about felonies. And they went from 50-380. OMG an increase of 89%!!! These aren't even deaths. The UK has 24 gun deaths a year with a third of your population 24!!!!!!!!!!!. There is no data to support the gun argument. IF you live in constant fear of someone taking your guns away you can probably seek help for that. It'll likely be covered under Obamacare.
                    So, the article I quoted you about the UK is bullshit....show me then. Oh wait you can't, you just ignore reality. So here we have some statistics that go against your world view...so you just conveniently call it bullshit without backing up your claim that it is in fact bullshit. If it is, show me some stats showing that gun violence and gun related deaths have went down in the UK since the gun ban. Show me.

                    I don't live in fear of a damn thing. It is my constitutional right to bear arms, just like it is my constitutional right to say what I want or believe what I want, period. If you actually knew your history, knew why the Founding Fathers gave us the Second Amendment or read even one thing they said about it, you'd know you are completely wrong. The problem is, you ignore how gun bans work in the real world. We have gun free zones and assault rifle bans in Connecticut, yet we have a school shooting. The arguments against guns are baseless and idiotic. No statistics actually back up the claims of gun-grabbers, while HISTORY itself shows 200+ million people killed at the hands of their GOVERNMENTS in the 20th Century alone after gun bans and gun control laws across the world. How about you address that. How about you address your precious Obama killing an average of 150-200 innocent children overseas with drone bombs every month? How about we ban these drone bombings and wars he continues to prosecute illegally?

                    What about the TV article I quoted? Nothing on that of course right Danny? What about banning those big 72 inch screens. No one needs a TV that big. And think of the children Danny, the children! Ban them NOW!

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                      Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
                      20th Century... 20th Century... Sounds familiar. Oh, right, I bought my house through them!

                      Look, you are welcome to believe that gun registration will send the United States on the inevitable path to genocide... but I will not be joining you. And of course, there is nothing to stop you from defending yourself from the government with your registered gun, is there? Honestly, I think that one problem that some gun owners have is that they are so focused on the government kicking in their front door that they are blinded to the ways our rights actually are disappearing.



                      Well, that is an interesting perspective (and I am not being sarcastic... for a change) but I think it is a misuse of the word "punishment." The way you are defining it, any requirement becomes a punishment.
                      Ignore it all you want, but genocides committed by governments have been committed for thousands of years. To ignore this is to be either completely ignorant of how history, humanity, and governments work, or it's just stupidity. You act like the things that happened in the 20th Century could only happen then, certainly not in the 21st century. No, people are so less hateful and governments so less powerful and corruptible.

                      Give me a break man, I never once said "if we take away all guns in the US or have registration, it will lead to mass genocide in the US", that shit is nothing more than a strawman and you know it. NOWHERE did I say it WOULD lead to genocide here; I simply said it is a possibility. And given history, it is certainly a good possibility. Not certainty, just a possibility. To not be able to at least see that, again, is just being ignorant of history and human nature.

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                      • Originally posted by smurf View Post
                        Feinstein and Reno have both been quoted as wanting a complete ban and confiscation of privately held firearms. I'm sure that there have been many others.



                        Bullshit. Wal-Mart alone probably sells over 60% of the firearms in this country (hyperbole). You look like a fool parroting this unbelievable assertion, Danny.



                        No, it's completely unbelievable bullshit. You obviously know nothing of America and how our gun laws are written.



                        I have all the argument I need - the Second Amendment - recently confirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court. Do you need any more "data" than that?
                        I don't care if you want to keep your guns. It's appalling but as you said its your right. Just don't convince me guns make your country safer because they haven't and they don't.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • Originally posted by ericams2786 View Post
                          So, the article I quoted you about the UK is bullshit....show me then. Oh wait you can't, you just ignore reality. So here we have some statistics that go against your world view...so you just conveniently call it bullshit without backing up your claim that it is in fact bullshit. If it is, show me some stats showing that gun violence and gun related deaths have went down in the UK since the gun ban. Show me.

                          I don't live in fear of a damn thing. It is my constitutional right to bear arms, just like it is my constitutional right to say what I want or believe what I want, period. If you actually knew your history, knew why the Founding Fathers gave us the Second Amendment or read even one thing they said about it, you'd know you are completely wrong. The problem is, you ignore how gun bans work in the real world. We have gun free zones and assault rifle bans in Connecticut, yet we have a school shooting. The arguments against guns are baseless and idiotic. No statistics actually back up the claims of gun-grabbers, while HISTORY itself shows 200+ million people killed at the hands of their GOVERNMENTS in the 20th Century alone after gun bans and gun control laws across the world. How about you address that. How about you address your precious Obama killing an average of 150-200 innocent children overseas with drone bombs every month? How about we ban these drone bombings and wars he continues to prosecute illegally?

                          What about the TV article I quoted? Nothing on that of course right Danny? What about banning those big 72 inch screens. No one needs a TV that big. And think of the children Danny, the children! Ban them NOW!
                          I cannot bring myself to validate your response about tvs a a serious rebuttal by commenting on it. It's so ridiculous its almost offensive.

                          The UK data proves my point. The gun death rate is nil. As for your gun free Zones they make no sense as I pointed out. May as well start having gun free rooms.

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                          • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                            Originally posted by Danny View Post
                            I cannot bring myself to validate your response about tvs a a serious rebuttal by commenting on it. It's so ridiculous its almost offensive.

                            The UK data proves my point. The gun death rate is nil. As for your gun free Zones they make no sense as I pointed out. May as well start having gun free rooms.
                            So, let me get this straight:

                            I quote an article from a UK news source, a legitimate one, showing that gun related violence and gun deaths are up nearly 80+% in a decade (the article being from 2009) and you completely ignore it while making a claim about gun deaths being "nil". So the people who die in gun violence in the UK are "nil" and not important; only deaths occurring where there is no gun ban is important. If those deaths then increase with a ban, it's nil. So again, for the record, for everyone on here: I provide evidence to back up my claim, you give absolutely no evidence to back up your claim that the gun death rate in the UK is "nil". In other words, I provided evidence for my claim, you rebutted with an opinion. Good job.

                            The point of the TV article, as it clearly went above your head, is that big TV's are killing and injuring an increasing number of children in the US in recent years, due to tipping over and that sort of thing. In other words TV's have the potential to kill and injure, just like any other INANIMATE object, just like guns. You may say "yeah but no one needs an assault rifle that can shoot a thousand rounds a minute". I'm saying "no one needs a 72 inch TV, why not just go with a 12 inch TV and save a life?". See how idiotic that question is now? The point isn't that you "don't need a 72 inch TV", the point is you have the liberty to buy and own one if you want. What you do with it - and how you secure it in your home to protect your children and others from it tipping - is the RESPONSIBILITY that comes with that liberty. I do not want to restrict your liberty to buy and own a TV that is ridiculously big and by no means needed. Don't restrict my liberty to own whatever gun I want, as long as I'm responsible enough to protect my children from it and use it responsibly - which I am.

                            Oh and what about your buddy Obama drone killing all those children? Don't care about that do you? Those 200 deaths per month are righteous and necessary - right? Why not talk about banning drone strikes and illegal wars?

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                            • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                              Originally posted by ericams2786 View Post
                              We are a Federal Republic, not a democracy. Everything about our system of government is designed to protect the minority from the dictates of the majority.
                              I know conservatives hate that word, because it reeks of equality, which is not a tenet of conservatism. Conservatism throughout history works to undermine democracy and equality and create some form of an aristocracy and hierarchy. In today's culture it is the 'job creators', the 'makers', and the corporations who the ultra-conservative Supreme Court majority deemed a person. And for the underlings who are not among the elite it is crucial to conservatism that those people must literally love the order that dominates them.

                              It truly is the antithesis of liberalism.

                              Classical liberals assume a natural equality of humans; conservatives assume a natural hierarchy.
                              James M. Buchanan

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                              • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                                Originally posted by Danny View Post
                                I cannot bring myself to validate your response about tvs a a serious rebuttal by commenting on it. It's so ridiculous its almost offensive.
                                So you want kids to die so you can burn more energy? How compassionate of you, Danny.

                                The UK data proves my point. The gun death rate is nil. As for your gun free Zones they make no sense as I pointed out. May as well start having gun free rooms.
                                1. Correlation = Causation fallacy: the UK and US are not identical countries except for gun laws. In fact, they are vastly different and have different populations, communities, urbanization patterns, etc... To pretend that making our gun laws like the UK's would lower our gun death rates to those of the UK is silly if based solely on this statistic.

                                2. Lower gun deaths does not equal safer communities/lower crime. In other words, dead is dead even if it's by knife.

                                3. Lower deaths (without being gun-specific) does not equal safer, either. Those deaths could be of intruders. Having those go down would make the country LESS safe.

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