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Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

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  • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

    Originally posted by Bfgrn View Post
    Irrelevant. The logical fallacy is your examples. No one is calling for a ban on all guns. Why is this so impossible to understand? Are you any less safe because you don't have a bazooka? The ban being talked about is for a specific type of weapon ONLY and over a certain capacity clip.

    This debate has really exposed the gun crowd as extreme, insecure, unable to understand even moderate ideas or proposals.
    How exactly is my example a fallacy? How about you produce your own example of a gun ban situation vs. no gun control and show me results that match your rhetoric? Good luck with that.

    Also, people have proposed gun bans in the past - in this country. Remember oh Janet Reno? Again, when she was in power she admitted that registration of firearms is a step toward total confiscation.

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    • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

      Originally posted by Bfgrn View Post
      Why should we have ANY laws then? Why have speed limits, will it stop someone from breaking them?

      I keep hearing nothing but the extreme from the right. Example: there is a loophole in the gun show law that allows a big gun dealer to pose as little uncle Joe selling a gun or two, and circumvent doing a background check. Why wouldn't any law abiding gun owner and citizen want to close that loophole? ericams2786's post gives the example of a town where every head of the household is required to have a gun,. I am going to utilize the 'slippery slope' this time...what next? What next Mrs. M? What kind of nation do we want to be? What does that model look like where everyone has a gun?

      Maybe America should follow the lead of the most ultra-conservative cultures on the planet...Muslim countries.

      Talk about fallacies...equating "conservative" Muslim regimes to "conservatives" in America. Wow. See, the far right "radicals" you talk about in this country are far closer to "Classic Liberal" in their philosophy (my guy Ron Paul for instance) than the "moderates" in Washington. But these "conservatives" you talk about in these Muslim countries are not the same as "conservatives" here unless you mean religious Progressives/Statists. These "conservative" Muslims are nothing more than Fascists. They certainly are not Classic Liberals.

      I'm getting sick of being called paranoid and scared and insecure just because I understand why the Second Amendment exists and why it was put there by the Founders. It is my constitutional to bear arms just like it is for me to speak freely, for the press to be free, for me to worship whatever god I want, and to have a fair trial. How the hell am I being scared just because I want the Constitution intact. I will defend the 1st amendment, 4th amendment, heck all of them just as vehemently as I would the 2nd Amendment. Does that mean all the sudden if I am opposed to the Patriot Act (which I am) that I am paranoid and insecure because it infringes on the Bill of Rights? That is the argument you are making and it is ridiculous.

      I am not scared or insecure because I believe in the original intent of the Constitution and the Founders.

      Again my question is: Why is the government scared of the People? Why do we have the Dept of Homeland Security buying up one billion rounds of hollow point (banned by the Geneva convention) ammo? What are they going to use 1 billion rounds for? They aren't the military...so what the hell are THEY scared of? Answer that one. But do not call me insecure or scared because I believe in the original intent of the Constitution. We have the Second Amendment for a reason and it is not to duck hunt or for sport or to collect shiny guns. The Founders said so themselves. It is to protect ourselves from tyranny. Was Thomas Jefferson or Patrick Henry being insecure chicken shits? No, they were being smart. They knew their history. Something people on both sides of the isle need to start learning. And quick.

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      • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

        Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
        Besides being responsible for TSA, Customs, ICE and the Secret Service, DHS provides training for numerous state and local agencies. What do you expect them to use in training over the next five years, cap guns?

        NRA-ILA | Federal Law Enforcement Agencies Buy Ammunition
        I am opposed to the Patriot Act, as well as the TSA and the DHS it created. I don't want them to exist. If you are really so naive as to think that DHS and the TSA, which do not routinely go around shooting people, and which only operate domestically need ONE BILLION rounds of ammo that even the military does not use because it is banned by the Geneva Convention, then man I just feel bad for you. One billion rounds is a lot of damn ammo to be using domestically. Seriously, think for a minute.

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        • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

          Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
          The Second Amendment calls for a well regulated militia, doesn't it?
          That's not all it says, it's called a comma.

          Also, US code clearly defines the militia as:

          1.) the National Guard

          and

          2.) EVERY able bodied male 17-45 years of age.

          So every male 17-45 are in the militia. The Second Amendment says that your right to bear arms shall not be infringed, especially because it is needed for a militia. Therefore, I have the right to bear arms. And I'm 27 so by US law, I'm part of the militia.

          See it's simple.

          But again it's called a comma.

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          • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

            Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
            Last time I checked, when pencils, cars and forks are used as intended they don't kill people. Remind me again what the Bushmaster .223 was originally designed for?
            Why does the original design matter? Many technologies we use today in civilian life were designed for military or other noncivilian purposes. Their original design does not matter at all in those circumstances.

            The Second Amendment calls for a well regulated militia, doesn't it?
            It CALLS for the right of the people to keep and bear arms to not be infringed. It RECOGNIZES a well regulated militia as being necessary to the security of a free State.
            Last edited by Slon; 12-30-2012, 06:09 PM.

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            • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

              Originally posted by Bfgrn View Post
              "How strict would gun laws have to be to prevent massacres?"

              Strict enough to prevent a criminal from buying guns in the safety, comfort and sanction of a gun show without having a background check run on him. No matter what is being said, there IS a loophole in the gun show law that allows a big gun dealer to pose as little uncle Joe selling a gun or two, and circumvent doing a background check.

              FACT: Gun sellers who claim to be occasional sellers are not required by current federal law to conduct background checks on their customers. Furthermore, there is no clear definition of how many guns a person can sell as an occasional seller it could be dozens, or even hundreds.

              The Firearm Owners' Protection Act (FOPA) states: 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D), (22). Those not engaged in the business of dealing guns are exempt from the licensure requirement.

              So, closing the gun show loophole would not punish any law abiding gun owner. Your argument is invalid.

              And Mrs M, as citizens, we can't stop a criminal from buying an illegal firearm from the trunk of another criminal in some dark alley.

              But, that's where the criminal should be forced to buy a gun. In a totally illegal setting, with all the inherent dangers that come with it. BUT, our current laws sanction criminals being able to walk into a gun show, receive expert advice, discounts, what ever weapon(s) they desire without a background check or having to pay black market prices or risk the dangers of buying a weapon from another criminal in a dark alley.
              How strict do drug bans need to be? Can we get rid of drugs with laws? Do people still do drugs despite the War on Drugs?

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              • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                Originally posted by AkDiesel View Post
                That means again for the those missing the reading class, Each and Every Citizen of this Country you me and the rest of the posters here We are Part of that Well Regulated Militia.
                The Well Regulated Militia is that we are to act as a group under the orders of an Officer on behalf of the Military in times of National Defense.
                We are not to act as an un-controlled mob.

                Also it's pretty simple: What the hell is the definition of "militia" as understood for hundreds, if not thousands of years (well since Roman times anyway)? AN UNORGANIZED ARMY OF THE CITIZENRY. Who, must have weapons in order to be in a militia. Durrr.

                Why can't people understand this?

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                • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                  Originally posted by ericams2786 View Post
                  How strict do drug bans need to be? Can we get rid of drugs with laws? Do people still do drugs despite the War on Drugs?
                  Drug laws banned drug shows. And you can't safely buy drugs at a drug show. So...did I miss it when they celebrated the removal of all illegal drug use in America?

                  (̅_̅_̅(̅(̅_̅_̅_̅_̅_̅̅()ڪ

                  Originally posted by ericams2786 View Post
                  Also it's pretty simple: What the hell is the definition of "militia" as understood for hundreds, if not thousands of years (well since Roman times anyway)? AN UNORGANIZED ARMY OF THE CITIZENRY. Who, must have weapons in order to be in a militia. Durrr.

                  Why can't people understand this?
                  You can't form a good militia overnight in an emergency if people don't have any guns and if they don't know how to use guns due to not having any.

                  ?


                  • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                    Originally posted by Bfgrn View Post
                    "How strict would gun laws have to be to prevent massacres?"

                    Strict enough to prevent a criminal from buying guns in the safety, comfort and sanction of a gun show without having a background check run on him. No matter what is being said, there IS a loophole in the gun show law that allows a big gun dealer to pose as little uncle Joe selling a gun or two, and circumvent doing a background check.

                    FACT: Gun sellers who claim to be “occasional sellers” are not required by current federal law to conduct background checks on their customers. Furthermore, there is no clear definition of how many guns a person can sell as an “occasional seller” – it could be dozens, or even hundreds.

                    The Firearm Owners' Protection Act (FOPA) states: 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D), (22). Those not “engaged in the business” of dealing guns are exempt from the licensure requirement.

                    So, closing the gun show loophole would not punish any law abiding gun owner. Your argument is invalid.

                    And Mrs M, as citizens, we can't stop a criminal from buying an illegal firearm from the trunk of another criminal in some dark alley.

                    But, that's where the criminal should be forced to buy a gun. In a totally illegal setting, with all the inherent dangers that come with it. BUT, our current laws sanction criminals being able to walk into a gun show, receive expert advice, discounts, what ever weapon(s) they desire without a background check or having to pay black market prices or risk the dangers of buying a weapon from another criminal in a dark alley.
                    Again, there is NO circumstance in which a licensed dealer may sell a firearm to an individual without a background check lawfully. None whatsoever.

                    I directly challenge you, Bfgrn, to cite the law you claim contain this loophole. And please don't bother citing the FOPA, as it clearly does not exempt a licensed dealer.

                    You keep repeating this same false claim. Let's see some proof.

                    "If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."
                    - Joeseph Goebbels (himself a gun control advocate)
                    Last edited by MattInFla; 12-30-2012, 06:34 PM.

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                    • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                      Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
                      That's certainly one use but not what it was originally designed for.
                      The gun in question was designed to sell. They put that scary looking stock on it to make it sell to a particular audience. It is not the same as the military version of the weapon. If you fired a Bushmaster on full auto for even one clip's worth of ammo, the barrel would melt. It is simply a big boy's toy. You may not like it, you may be scare of it, you may think it has no purpose in the world but it's here and it is very popular with a lot of people who shoot varmints and in competition.

                      ?


                      • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                        Originally posted by Mrs. M View Post
                        Oh geeez! Are you truly going to focus on what you perceive as a loophole at gun shows? Do you really believe that that is where most criminals get their guns?
                        Oh geeez Mrs. M? Is that a dismissal? Well, I didn't know 51% was the criteria. You know, most people who drink and drive don't kill anybody, so let's throw out those draconian laws. And as long as less than half the tires Ford installed on Explorers don't suffer catastrophic failure, there is no need for a recall.

                        The loophole is not perceived, it is real.

                        FACT: Gun shows are a major source for illegal gun traffickers. The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives (ATF) studied their investigations into illegal gun trafficking and found that gun shows were involved with over 10,000 illegally trafficked guns a year about 30% of all criminal trafficking detected in the investigations.
                        Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, Following the Gun: Enforcing Federal Laws Against Firearms Traffickers (June 2000), available at http://www.atf.gov/pub/fireexplo_pub...n_internet.pdf

                        My question is, when do gun owners denial of any need for change cross over into protecting murderers?

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                        • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                          How can something be a "loophole" if it is "illegal"?

                          You're contradicting yourself, Bfgrn.

                          ?


                          • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                            Originally posted by Bfgrn View Post
                            Oh geeez Mrs. M? Is that a dismissal? Well, I didn't know 51% was the criteria. You know, most people who drink and drive don't kill anybody, so let's throw out those draconian laws. And as long as less than half the tires Ford installed on Explorers don't suffer catastrophic failure, there is no need for a recall.

                            The loophole is not perceived, it is real.

                            FACT: Gun shows are a major source for illegal gun traffickers. The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives (ATF) studied their investigations into illegal gun trafficking and found that gun shows were involved with over 10,000 illegally trafficked guns a year – about 30% of all criminal trafficking detected in the investigations.
                            Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, “Following the Gun: Enforcing Federal Laws Against Firearms Traffickers” (June 2000), available at http://www.atf.gov/pub/fireexplo_pub...n_internet.pdf

                            My question is, when do gun owners denial of any need for change cross over into protecting murderers?
                            When did it come the responsibility of some one like Ford to follow around a car or truck to make sure that the driver is taking proper care of the car or truck including the tires?

                            Government calling some guns or fire arms illegal is nothing more than a way of making sure that only they have a more powerful fire arm.
                            Gun control in the past has been used to control people of either color or a lower class by people of another color or upper class... and it continues today.
                            People go along with the idea of control because they some how think that they will be safer, but that is far from the truth. The truth is that if the government continues with the push for more control the real losers will be the ones not of the same color or class as the ones putting in the controls.

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                            • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                              Here is some info on the loophole...

                              What is the gun show loophole?

                              Federal law allows people who sell guns to avoid running background checks or keeping records by calling themselves occasional sellers, and these sellers often congregate at gun shows. The loophole provides criminals with easy access to firearms without having to worry about any background checks.
                              • Current law requires licensed gun dealers to conduct background checks, because that is the only way to determine whether a person is eligible to buy a gun. Licensed dealers must also keep records about the buyer so ATF can trace the gun if it is recovered at a crime scene.[i]
                              • The law does not, however, require so-called occasional sellers to do these checks and theres no clear definition of what qualifies as an occasional seller.[ii]
                              • Many sellers at gun shows abuse that loophole by calling themselves occasional sellers. Because they concentrate at gun shows, it is easy for felons and other prohibited possessors to find someone who will sell to them without a background check.
                              ...........*ATF concluded that gun shows and flea markets are a major venue for illegal trafficking.[iii]
                              • Gun shows linked to the Pentagon Shooting: In March 2010, John Bedell who was prohibited by law from possessing guns shot two Pentagon police officers with a gun purchased from a private seller at a Las Vegas gun show.
                              • Gun shows were tied to a broad range of violations, including straw purchases and the sale of kits to convert legal guns into illegal machine guns.


                              Solution: Require occasional sellers to run instant background checks.

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                              • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                                And again, this only applies to individuals. It does NOT apply to a licensed dealer as you have repeatedly and falsely claimed.

                                So now that we have disposed of that untruth, I'll say again that I fully support having all transfers go through a background check.

                                But that won't satisfy the gun-ban crowd.

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